Geoff: 0:00

Hello podcats , Geoff Gascoyne here. It's a beautiful day and I'm on my way to West London to meet a fantastic young guitar player. His name is Tom Ollendorff. He's a virtuosic, internationally recognised guitar star Looking forward to having a little waffle talking about guitars, stuff like that.

Announcement: 0:21

So here we go. The Quartet jazz standards podcast is brought to you by the Quartet app for iOS, taking your jazz play along to another level.

Geoff: 0:48

Hey Tom, Hello Geoff, hey man, how's it going?

Geoff: 0:51

Going alright thanks, yeah, thanks for having me around. No, no, my pleasure, my pleasure, am I serious? It feels like I'm in a Richard Curtis film Hi Tom.

Geoff: 1:00

Hey Geoff , Can we start by talking about how you got into improvising?

Tom: 1:03

Actually you know as a guitar player a lot of the kind of music which guitar players start with learning, like rock and blues. There's actually a lot of improvising in that music. It's a different kind of vocabulary but it's really improv based. So my first guitar heroes were people like Stevie Ray Vaughan and BB King. I love John Brashante from the Red Old Chili Peppers and you know those guys. they all kind of improvise it. As I said, it's a different vocabulary and language but it's all about just kind of playing and being in the moment and making something up, and so that's really where I started. That was kind of quite normal for me as a guitar player, like just thinking like that really. And then I guess I started feeling a little bit like there's maybe a bit more like a broader musical language out there than just the blues scale, you know.

Geoff: 1:49

So you started breaking out of the boxes a little bit.

Tom: 1:51

Yeah, I mean I remember that.

Tom: 1:52

I remember just it's just one of those things by chance but I remember going to like a bar with my dad for a drink and there was a great guitarist there just playing like a background standards key, yeah, and I remember thinking like what are all these like chords and scales? You know cause I was just really limited, I guess, in terms of, yeah, I said, the kind of vocabulary or language I had, and so I just went and spoke to him after and said, look, you know I'm, you know I love playing guitar. But I kind of moment where I started to discover the kind of broader musical language vocabulary that is in jazz, you know the kind of really broad term of jazz, and I think I was already listening to a bit of jazz. Like I remember having it's really cliche, but I remember having Kind of Blue and just being upset, really obsessed with that once I left school. Yeah, just again, like I remember listening to that song is it Flamenco Sketches? And I remember thinking that it's quite kind of modal, so it's on a lot of it's like just on one chord.

Tom: 2:52

So I kind of felt that was quite familiar in a way. But then I remember especially the Cannonball Adderley solo on that. It's just really melodic in a way which it's a different kind of melody than you hear in blues playing, you know, if we jump just forward a little bit then. Yeah, so I started taking these lessons with this fantastic guitar player called Guy Harrop, then decided to audition to go and study at music college and and Guy kind of helped me just learn a few standards and um and and that was it really. And then once I started at college, I guess I already had some kind of inclination for, wow, I got a lot of stuff, I got to check out a lot of stuff, I got to learn. I mean I still feel like that, obviously, but yeah, and then that was the process of beginning to, I guess, assimilate and check out things. I was interested in building my own kind of vocabulary and own ideas, you know.

Geoff: 3:35

How big a thing was playing jazz standards. Was that a big part of your development? Yeah, I think it was a huge thing.

Tom: 3:40

Yeah, yeah, totally essential. Because if you learn, like Autumn Leaves or All The Things You Are or whatever, those songs are all kind of functional. You know there's, there's all this kind of there's this, these harmonic rules and, yeah, again, like vocabulary, you know harmonic vocabulary. Even if you're not having that the mindset of trying to understand it. All you have to do is learn a few standards and then maybe play one with a singer and doing a different key, like oh I, you know, if I want to play this music and understand it, I'm gonna have to get that kind of core understanding of harmony.

Tom: 4:07

I remember that was a big word in my first year or two of college. Was harmony like? You have to really get your harmony together, like understand common chord progressions, cadences you see in jazz, and then how you improvise through that you know, and so for me, like standards was really the main way I did that at the beginning. That was just the material everyone, everyone was playing and you know, if you want to be able to improvise over those songs and, as I say, like let's say you're playing All The h Things You Are, but you're doing a different key, you kind of have to understand how to move your language around you know, yeah,

Geoff: 4:34

Speaking of language, I mean, did you transcribe?

Tom: 4:37

Very much. Yeah, loads, yeah loads.

Tom: 4:38

Were there formative things that you transcribed? It was, but I think I always did it wrong or not wrong, but didn't do it. Well, you know, let's say you work out a Sonny Rollins solo, for example, that's already good to do it. You know it's not, it's, you're already going to get something out of it. But if you want to really get that language in you, you have to make that your whole life in a way. You know so sing the solo, play the certain, every key, just spend a long time with it, come back to it it.

Tom: 5:02

I'm embarrassed to say it, but it was probably more honestly during COVID that I started to work in, I would say, a more pragmatic way with that kind of stuff. I honestly had transcribed like 30 or 40 solos and often I wrote them out and I analysed them and stuff, and that was just all kind of I'm not saying it was all a waste of time, but it wasn't getting to the heart of the issue. All a waste of time, but it wasn't getting to the heart of the, the issue which is it's a, it's a, it's an oral thing and you have to yeah, you have to really get the sound inside your ear and then, whatever your instrument on guitar, there's some specific things you have to work out how to play it on your instrument, you know yeah and it's the combination of those two things and the kind of continual um study, that that's how you assimilate language

Geoff: 5:41

So many more aspects to it than that isn't there.

Tom: 5:43

There's the rhythmic aspect of notating it. Absolutely, yeah, yeah, 100%, yeah, things like that, and that was helpful for me to do that, because I'm not a great reader.

Tom: 5:51

So actually writing stuff out helped me get better at that and helped me understand what rhythm looked like on the score, you know. So that was good. When I have a student now and we're working on a transcription, I'll say to them you know, it's great to do the whole thing. Well, this is what I say to myself, but it's great to do the whole thing. But what are your favorite ideas in the solo? And then can you internalize that idea in a way that you've got freedom with?

Tom: 6:12

You don't want to just be playing that melody over and over again. You want, like you want to be able to first of all play it in any key but also be able to take the kind of harmonic ideas and have some freedom with them. And it's more about that, like really integrating the sound and the kind of yeah, I guess the voice leading you hear in like your favourite jazz improv and then working out how you're going to use that. You know People often have this term language. To me it's just the language you want to solo with. It's not necessarily bebop language or, you know, swing language or whatever. It's just it's about having like a kind of melodic sense that you have freedom to use, you know and whatever. That's just. It's about having like a kind of melodic sense that you have freedom to use, you know and whatever that is. It can be anything. Actually it doesn't have to be.

Tom: 6:49

There shouldn't be any pressure that it has to be anything. Yeah,

Geoff: 6:50

So you wouldn't call yourself a bebop guitar player then?

Tom: 6:52

definitely not.

Tom: 6:52

No, no, 100, not no, but I love that, and that's the music I've probably transcribed the most honestly yeah I mean right now, like I'm in terms of, like my professional life maybe only a quarter or even less than that of the gigs I do are standards gigs, you know, but it's a really important part of my, of the music, for me, because that my favorite musicians always played standards, even if they're playing original music as well, that that was just who my idols were, you know?

Geoff: 7:14

Of course, playing standards is is like a benchmark. Yeah, that's the kind of place that you you can judge a musician by in some ways, isn't it?

Tom: 7:20

Absolutely yeah, and, as I said, like for me it was nice because my favorite guitarist whether it was a full set of standards or just maybe one or two standards in a gig they always had that and they were always playing and if you, if I went to see them live or listen to a gig of theirs, or that would always be there. So for me it was a benchmark anyway yeah,

Geoff: 7:37

t's funny. you talk about um, uh, lockdown, because I had a similar experience in lockdown. I started playing classical guitar in lockdown. You talk about focus, yeah, having nothing to go out for. Yeah, all that stuff was it was it similar thing for you?

Tom: 7:50

Yeah, I mean it took me a minute to calibrate. I think the year before that was probably the first year that I'd started really working and touring and doing stuff I really liked right.

Geoff: 7:58

So it was a bit of a blow for you then, surely, wasn't it?

Tom: 8:00

At the beginning it was really annoying. But I think the thing is is that you have to put your own frustration in perspective of everybody else's frustration, because I was actually in the time living in a house with quite a few musicians. Everyone had lost work. I think there was the first few weeks, or maybe even month. I didn't do a ton of practice to. Get used to the silence, Right, but then after that I think I think honestly really helpful for me to have some time. You know, I think that kind of slight change in mindset has helped me. When I have the time I still practice that and practice more than I have done in the past. Now you know, um, so for me it was helpful just because I remember always saying god, I could really do with just a month of nothing on to get better at this and then it happens so and you see, you got to take advantage of it, you know of course, you have to be self-motivated as well, though don't you?

Tom: 8:42

yeah, I mean to be in our profession.

Geoff: 8:43

You have to be self-motivated as well, though, don't you? Yeah? Yeah, yeah To be in our profession, you have to be very self-motivated,

Tom: 8:47

Yeah well, that's definitely true.

Tom: 8:49

I would definitely not describe myself as the most zen person. It's not all about self-improvement and development. Of course, if I'm not working or not doing gigs, it can be tough, but the big thing is just the journey you go on as a musician yourself. The last few years I've been really lucky to be touring a lot and working with some really amazing musicians, and so which has really been a dream for me. But if ever I feel like, oh, I'm not improving or there's things I need to get better at, that still feels like the main focus for me. That kind of motivation comes from within. All you have to do is put on a Charlie Parker record or a Kurt Rosenwinkel record and see the standards that your heroes set you.

Tom: 9:25

You know yeah you know you have these people to aspire to be and the journey of it is the whole thing to try and enjoy. You know, not that, not that it's easy if you, you know, if you're not working or whatever, those things are really tough for everyone, but that's the kind of main thing you know, yeah, yeah, yeah,

Geoff: 9:38

A lot of musicians do teaching because there's not enough gigs, right?

Tom: 9:42

Yeah, yeah yeah, Was there a sense of that?

Tom: 9:43

The first few years I was in London I just did so few gigs it was, yeah, couldn't have survived at all without without teaching at all.

Tom: 9:48

Yeah, you learned something about yourself, though?

Tom: 9:50

Definitely, and actually like there's a few things that you mentioned about classical guitar. My classical guitar playing and my classical reading really improved teaching because I had a few students who were really good, like grade six or seven, maybe even higher, classical yeah, and so you know, I had to be like quite on point with my reading, like you know, I'm not a great reader anyway, but they'd. Often your student brings in a, you know, quite difficult classical piece and they're like can you play this passage for me? And you, you know? The beginning.

Tom: 10:13

You're like oh crap you know, and also when you're working with students who are particularly into, like improvising, then I think there's a lot to learn for your you know, for yourself you know, and I think probably haven't improved or developed a lot as a musician by doing that, honestly, just you know. Now I'm lucky, I teach, you know, a few colleges and I find that still helps me because you're working with amazing young musicians who, honestly, sometimes have strengths you don't have, you know like I, I was teaching a guy, a fantastic guitar player, last week or a few weeks ago, and he was doing this incredible kind of Freddie Green comping.

Tom: 10:43

but it was sounded so authentic and I just said to him honestly, like I've never quite got that down in that way, you know, and that's inspiring, because when you're working with any good musician they're always going to have things about them that you don't know. Yeah, yeah, but there's sort of there'll always be things that you can't do, Absolutely yeah, working really hard and improving that inspires you as well, you know.

Geoff: 11:05

So how much classical guitar have you played?

Tom: 11:08

I mean, probably I've honestly done more classical piano pieces on the guitar than classical guitar pieces. Five or six years ago was Learning Bach two-part inventions on the guitar, and then from there I learned some like Debussy pieces, and some of those I've even recorded actually, and that's a really different you know thing. That's a really different level of work. That's hard, yeah, yeah. Yeah, there's a few, you know, probably spent. You know there's definitely some pieces I've definitely spent, you know, 1,000 or 2,000 hours on just one three-minute piece, maybe, honestly, even more than that actually, to be honest. But that was really that was very helpful for me in terms of focusing on sound, technique, you know, trying to play something and just make it sound beautiful.

Geoff: 11:46

And would you do that on the electric guitar? Yeah, I have a couple of guitars.

Tom: 11:49

I have a bigger jazz guitar On that it sounds really good. Actually, it's because it has a really strong acoustic sound. It's not like an arch, well, it is kind of like an arch top, but it's, yeah, it just has a very interesting sound and I actually honestly, just to my own ears, I kind of slightly prefer the sound of it than classical guitar, but it does. It's just purely a taste thing and also for me some of those pieces are really difficult and I'm just playing a big classical guitar with a fat neck. I just couldn't do it. You know, probably, honestly, listen to at least as much, if not more, classical music than jazz. Honestly, My parents loved classical music, so that was all something. as a kid I was kind of around and and this just endless vault of incredible stuff I'm always just finding. I mean, I listened to the same stuff over and over again but listened to it for years, honestly, always finding new things and just totally mind blowing, you know.

Geoff: 12:33

I got obsessed with Antonio Lauro because it's very jazzy, isn't?

Tom: 12:37

it yeah, yeah.

Geoff: 12:38

Yeah, very difficult.

Tom: 12:45

I think there is definitely a classical influence in a lot of jazz musicians and I'd say particularly like 19th, 20th century French musicians Debussy, Ravel, people like that. For a long time, actually, my favourite music was Mahler and Bruckner and that was actually really the stuff I would listen to just the most. There's a Debussy piece. I put a lot of effort into learning on the guitar and I actually sometimes play that. If I have a solo gig, I'll sometimes do that as an encore or something, Although I have to be a little careful to keep it in shape, because it's like you don't practice it for a few weeks and it's gone.

Geoff: 13:10

And that leads me on to nicely, because you've written a book, haven't you? Yeah, tell me about how that came about.

Tom: 13:16

It came about because I was just a minute ago, like I sometimes just posted on YouTube a video of me playing like a Bach two pound invention or all this Debussy piece. I had so many messages from people asking for transcriptions so I thought, well, what's the best way to to do this? Like I'd started writing a few like little studies to like try and develop some aspect, technical aspects, especially of things that like when I've worked on the Debussy piece, for example, like sometimes I would like just isolate one technical idea and just kind of come up with my own little idea to get better at it, yeah and so I started writing these pieces and I ended up with a with eight actually well more than that, but there was eight which I thought were quite good.

Tom: 13:52

I actually, funnily enough, at the time was singing in a choir because it was this was in lockdown. I was singing with the London Symphony Chorus and a guy who I sat next to, I was just talking, talking to him. I said do you know anything about sheet music? I was thinking about doing a book and he said oh, you know, like my husband actually works at Boosey and Hawkes and you should send it to him. You know, send him just the videos. And so I sent it to them and they said listen, it's really nice, but it's not quite our thing, but you should write to Faber.

Tom: 14:15

So I wrote to Faber and they but I didn't realise how much work it was going to be. You know, obviously if you do something you want to do it really well, but that was. It was a tonne of work and I was quite busy at the time anyway. But so I put this book together for them and it was eight pieces, some technical exercises. I don't think I did any full transcriptions of the thing I'm talking about, or there's a Mendelssohn piece or some Schubert, but I did like little extracts of them and kind of showed how, like how, using those pieces helped me write my own pieces, and that was it really. It was just it, you know, and it was really fun thing to do. It was quite. I found it a lot, you know, because I'm a bit slow with writing like stuff.

Tom: 14:50

I'm not that great at that and it was a lot of like checking fingerings and I did it in tab and notation.

Geoff: 14:56

You did that as well, did you So did everything.

Tom: 14:58

I mean I the thing is is because it was so specific it.

Geoff: 15:00

It has to be, yeah it has to kind of be you really. Well that's the thing I found about guitar music as well, because there's four places to play middle C you have to have the tab in some ways.

Tom: 15:12

And I've just been approached by someone else to do another kind of video course and book and there's been a few actually and I'm trying to kind of work out which one to go with. And that's one thing I was thinking a lot about was how am I going to how deep to go into that stuff, because I felt like in the book I went really quite deep into it.

Geoff: 15:29

I mean, I've taught electric bass for years you know in different aspects and I've always been a reader, so I started off like you on classical guitar.

Tom: 15:37

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Geoff: 15:38

And I would always slightly look down on tablature and I would always slightly look down on tablature.

Tom: 15:42

Yeah, yeah, and as soon as I started playing guitar.

Geoff: 15:45

It's like a different window.

Tom: 15:46

But in a way tab makes the most sense for guitar.

Geoff: 15:49

Doesn't it.

Tom: 15:49

Because the thing is is that I think you have to be able to read, because no band leader is going to make you a tab score. You know, I have to be careful as a sideman, I have to be careful to do my homework. If someone sends me a chart, because I can be pretty like you know, if I turn up a gig and I haven't seen the music which which happens pretty rarely, to be honest I can definitely be in hot water. I'm not like. But if it's like long melodies with hard rhythms, just as a general learning thing, I think tab makes a ton of sense.

Tom: 16:16

You know. It really does. Obviously, when you're like writing a score for something or like in my book, of course you.

Tom: 16:22

what you want to do is give the reader like the easiest way to play something or the most efficient way of course, what you really want is for the student or the who's not necessarily, but the person who's like looking at your piece to try and, yeah, I guess, spend a lot of time with the guitar and work how they want to play things. Yeah, I mean that Debussy piece I did, for example, I have, like there's some passages where I have three or four different fingerings. Really because they sound different, and I think the main thing on guitar is the use of open strings versus not I was just about to say that.

Geoff: 16:51

You know what. I bought your book and the first study in there.

Tom: 16:54

There's an open yeah, yeah, yeah, there's a thing is open. Yeah, yeah, and just having to balance that, yeah, yeah, across the across the instrument. Yeah, yeah, it's really hard. Yeah, it is hard, yeah, it is hard, and that the thing is is that that's one of the things I I really learned by playing that kind of music, was it doesn't sound quite right, unless you're thinking about those things yeah, there's one piece and actually I think in the end this didn't get included in the book.

Tom: 17:18

I don't remember now, but there's one piece I remember learning. It's this wonderful piece, the Schubert impromptu in g flat. I actually did it in g because then I could use the low e string. Uh, it was just slide your hand up, you know.

Tom: 17:29

But I remember learning it and and something just didn't sound right, you know, and I was thinking what is? Why can't I? And like I was practicing so much on this, like 30 seconds, something's just not working, like what? And it was just the fact that you had to think about the top note as like a singer and the bottom part as an accompaniment. And it probably now, if I tried to do it now, I honestly wouldn't be totally in shape with it, but it was one of those things that I had to really get inside. that you know, like, if you want to make something sound, you know, as complete as possible, that kind of control of your instrument is really important. And, to be honest, now, when I'm playing a ballad, I think about that, you know. And so if I'm playing like Body and Soul, whatever, like I want to play the melody and make it like the singer.

Tom: 18:13

And if I'm playing the chords, I want them to be like the accompanist, you know, I want them to be different. I want them the sound of. It kind of sounds like two things. Well, it's not actually two different things at once, but it just sounds like that. You know, it gives your performance a more complete. Could you demonstrate? I should have thought about warming up with it before. But the um, this Schubert thing. I'll do it really slowly, because otherwise I'll screw it up. But, um, yeah, if I do it without any dynamics, it's like I'll just slowly start, see if I can get it faster. But you know. So the idea is that this is, you know, the singer, you know, and so that's like ringing so clearly.

Geoff: 19:12

But yeah, it should be but. What you're doing there with your right hand, you're, you're picking really lightly. Exactly that's the idea, And then you're using your, your other fingers. Yeah, exactly, yeah, I'm just gonna have another plectrum.

Tom: 19:21

I think this is like a. There's one standard I love to see, but it should be. I'll probably screw this up, but it should be much faster, you know, like it should be, like that kind of speed. You know, I love those kind of things with the different dynamics. Like I sometimes play this song, My Foolish Heart, and there's this thing I like to do with that where I'll kind of have a pedal, you know, like a really soft pedal, you know, like this. So the idea is it just needs to be like constant and rich sounding, even if it's quiet, you know. So it's just that those different, and it could even be. I mean, that's a kind of more obvious example, but it could even be something like a bit more subtle, like you know. So it's just that those different, it could even be. I mean, that's a kind of more obvious example, but he could even be something like a bit more subtle, like you know. You know, so this is just more kind of conventional comping.

Tom: 20:35

It's lovely yeah, you know what I mean.

Tom: 20:58

And it's yeah, it's just trying to, I guess, give it that sound that it's like you imagine you're the piano player playing the left hand.

Geoff: 21:04

Someone's accompanying you, yeah.

Tom: 21:06

And my favourite piano players really have that. The person I'm thinking of the most is Aaron Parks. He has this very, very special thing with his left hand, Totally, in my opinion, totally unique and otherworldly when he can. I think a lot of it's really about the rhythm actually and his incredible individual sound. He can.

Tom: 21:22

It's, I think, a lot of it's really about the rhythm actually, and but, and his incredible like individual sound, his kind of time feel, but it's this amazing thing of you know he can play like if he's playing solo, especially although he does it when he's playing with a group, you know but that he can kind of accompany himself with this incredibly kind of weighty but incredibly swinging, almost stride-like left hand, you know. And then the melody can be projected so clearly you know, and I've really tried to do that and it's really I mean, it's a bit harder on the guitar. You know, there's one song I remember hearing.

Geoff: 21:57

It's very hard on the guitar. There's one song.

Tom: 21:59

I remember hearing him play For All We Know, and he was really doing that. I mean I'm probably going to screw it up. Yeah, you know, and he, I mean he, he sounds like a billion times better than mine, but he's got this really like kind of weighty swing.

Geoff: 23:02

Yeah, so it's a lightness, but it's got a weight to it, hasn't it?

Tom: 23:04

Yeah, and that's something I think really trying to think about, a lot like I, because I love playing solo gigs as well. Right, so for in solo gigs it's, of course, the most useful thing you know, because it's like you, if you, particularly if you can keep something going steadily in time.

Geoff: 23:17

Yeah, You know um It's hard just to sustain those notes long enough.

Tom: 23:22

Yeah, yeah, with the stuff going on, right yeah, and I would say to anyone listening like, just if you, if you can find this video of Aaron playing this thing For All We Know he does it with a lot of other things and he of course, he's not the only person who plays like that, there's lots of great. But he's one of my favorite musicians and, you know, lucky to work with him sometimes and and I remember we were actually once teaching together, we were once doing a kind of clinic somewhere and someone asked to demonstrate this piece of his. It's this really, oh no, it's called Lilac. I hope I haven't got this wrong and I, I just couldn't believe the like sitting next to him. Maybe I'm, it's the way I hear it but the weight of his left hand, the rhythm, the kind of rhythmic intensity and time feel of the way he kind of accompanies himself

Geoff: 24:10

A lot of that comes from an understanding of classical music, though surely I mean he plays classical music too?

Tom: 24:15

Righ I think he listens to a lot of classical music I think because

Tom: 24:17

I remember him showing me and I don't want to speak for him, you know, know, and he has I of great interviews and stuff on line, but I don't know exactly what it came from. With him I can he should be the one to answer, you know. But for me that that's just something which inspires me so much with him and and when I listen to you know, there's a lot, a lot of other musicians who who have that quality as well Somebody springs to mind is Enrico Pironunzi.

Tom: 24:40

Oh, oh, okay sure I played with him a bit Wow fantastic.

Tom: 24:43

Who is just like? If anyone doesn't know, he's like the Italian Bill Evans in some ways, isn't he? Yeah right, yeah, yeah, and that's someone who's got such a gorgeous touch on the piano?

Tom: 24:56

Yeah, absolutely, and I think it's partly about the touch and the sound, and I guess all the great musicians have that quality that they could just play anything. They could just play a play one note.

Tom: 25:06

Yeah, it's funny because I remember listening back the good example that I remember. There's a song of mine which we're actually recording soon with that, with with this. There's a quartet with Aaron and James, Maddren and Connor, which we did a nice, we did kind of 10 days tour last year and then we're we're um, we're going to the studio in a few weeks actually, and I remember listening back to one of the gigs and there's just this one piece and it's actually super simple and I was like what's the voicing he's doing, like what's going on here? Why does it sound? Why does my like one melody note sound so good? And it was just like literally just an Aflat flat triad, like it was not, it was actually like it was really nothing more than that, and so part of it's the touch.

Tom: 25:45

That's a huge thing is the sound you make for instrument and I think, but I think with him it's also the rhythm, and this is another thing I think about a lot of my favorite musicians. But he could just play a c major scale and you could tell it was him just by the rhythm. You know Scofield's like that. You know another one of my favorites and and I saw him play.

Tom: 26:00

Actually I was I was very lucky.. A student of mine talking about benefits of teaching an ex-student of mine who is a member of Ronnie Scott's and he said to me listen, I've got these tickets to see John Scofield do this private interview and he'll play a bit solo. Do you want to come? Which of course I jumped, and he jumped at the chance as one of my heroes and he was sitting as close to me as you. I was right at the front, my student really gone the full hog, wow. And I really wanted to ask him this but I was a bit shy, I didn't want to be nerdy, but you know, within one note it was so clear it's him, he. And I think the interesting thing was Sco sco is that his, his rhythmic sense and his, the way he feels the music to me feels more and more pronounced every time I hear him. It feels more and more kind of individual. I feel it's just got better and better. Honestly, I really wanted to ask him about that but I kind of chickened out.

Tom: 26:44

But I think a lot of my favourite players, like Kurt Rosenwinkel, has that. You know the feel is so unique you know, Peter Bernstein, you, just you hear one or two notes and you know it's them because of the rhythm you know, and Aaron, I think, is so strong like that. Yeah, it's. There's that kind of magic, there's that kind of mystery to it a little bit, you know.

Geoff: 27:09

So, um, I asked you to pick a standard. Yeah, You only recently come to hear my apps right yeah first impressions of the sounds great.

Tom: 27:17

And I said to you, I said to you before we're setting up, that you know I haven't played with a backing track app for quite for a minute and I guess my old memories were kind of these quite clunky things, you know. But this is great and I was a member, you know. I said to you who's the band Because it feels great to play along with and I think it's a great, it's a great resource. You know. I actually said to my girlfriend, because she has an iPad, I said to her let's download your iPad. And I said do you know what? Let me have it on the phone because it's really nice, you know, if you're learning a tune or whatever you're practicing. You know, like I said, there's that this, this Bud Powell Sonny Stick record I've been listening to on repeat recently and you know it's nice to practice some of along with a great band, you know. And so, yeah, it sounds really great.

Geoff: 28:02

So we have four volumes now, so three and four came out recently, so that's a total of 500 tunes.

Tom: 28:07

Wow, amazing, fantastic.

Geoff: 28:08

If you want to get go down that rabbit hole, feel free, and that thing we talked about earlier.

Tom: 28:12

You know, like learning play tunes in different keys and stuff. It sounds great. When you before I knew I couldn't. I was about playing a melody, like I was slowing it down a bit just to try and fit, like this, Sonny stipmandy with it and it feels great, so, yeah, it's a really nice job.

Geoff: 28:28

Fantastic. So you've chose C CottonTailas as C Cotton Tail Tail tail as your tune.

Tom: 28:33

Yeah, I just thought it'd be nice. As I said, like there's lots of rhythm changes on this record, I've just been listening to that a lot, that a lot.

Geoff: 28:39

so it's a, it's a Rhythm Changes, a standard, Rhythm Changes. Let's grab your headphones yeah great, We're going to have two choruses. how Howdoes does how does it end?

Tom: 28:50

that's one question. That's the jazz classic.

Tom: 28:53

B flat.

Geoff: 28:54

B flat okay but is it?

Tom: 28:55

Does it end straight on the beat or is there something happens?

Geoff: 28:57

on the beat, on the beat. So what we're going to do, we're just going to have two choruses of improvisation, eight bars of an F pedal to start with oh nice, okay great. Right, we're not playing a tune.

Tom: 30:14

And here it comes. Thank you, so Was that okay? That's great. Yeah, was that all right?

Tom: 30:27

Nice, to start with the pedal, you know yeah.

Geoff: 30:31

Yeah, when you're playing are you kind of conscious of licks?

Tom: 30:34

Definitely not conscious of licks or ideas, really. I have a student who's taking a lesson with me every week at the moment and we're just studying Rhythm Changes, this Sonny Stitt record it's just the best kind of improvising in that language.

Tom: 30:47

What's the name of the record? I was just called Sonny Stitt, Bud Powell, and I'll tell you something great about this record is that I remember in lockdown there's like two or three incredible Bud Powell intros on that record and I remember then discovering the alternate takes and the intros are the same and so you know he's composed these intros. They're great source of language material.

Geoff: 31:06

It's kind of like when you listen to Charlie Parker as well isn't it?

Tom: 31:09

They do a record date and you hear you know all those Savoy records. Yeah.

Geoff: 31:13

There's a lot of similarities, but you can hear the development.

Tom: 31:16

Yeah, yeah.

Geoff: 31:18

He may start with a and then move somewhere else.

Tom: 31:20

I mean absolutely, yeah, yeah, 100%, and. I think the thing that's so great about learning and transcribing from those guys it's just like the language is so refined but there's so much freedom within it. So one thing I'll do with the student or for myself is I'll take one idea and then see how much I can. Yeah, like, should I demonstrate?

Tom: 31:39

Sure, yeah, so, for example, I remember the first line of Sonny Stitt did solo, it's something like you know.

Tom: 31:48

So it's just the way they're thinking is like chord one, chord five. It's easy to be bogged down rhythm changes, feeling like you've got to hit every chord. You know, but so something like that like.

Geoff: 31:59

That's great about that is sorry to interrupt. What's great about that is the intervals inside it exactly, exactly, exactly exactly. Very much of a trademark of bebop, isn't it Exactly?

Tom: 32:09

Yeah, yeah, One thing I'll do for myself. If I learn something particularly you know haven't been doing that so much these days recently, but like when I was really like working on that kind of music a lot with students is that you take those really strong sounds inside the solo and see how you use that sound but in a different place, and now think about all those different endings. You can start using them with the.

Geoff: 32:41

So that bit you're talking about, that's an augmented triad.

Tom: 32:43

Exactly so, it's all about just taking the voice leading you hear, like taking the clear voice leading ideas and then seeing how you can like take the kind of concept and the musical sound and change it. You know, and of course once you start thinking like there's no limit, you can start changing that. And it's just endless. And then, like on guitar, you've got to do that in every register and everything.

Tom: 33:06

It's just about hearing those key sounds particularly that's such a strong jazz sound the augmented, going to the V chord, the sharp V, going to the IX on the I chord. It's about really getting those sounds in your ear and then the kind of vocabulary of it under your fingertips. And if you just approach it like that for a long period you're going to start having all this vocabulary. It doesn't have to be that. It could be something way more contemporary. You know it could be. You know you could listen to Alan Holdsworth and how he plays on standards and take that. But the point is trying to get it that deepest. Don't just learn a lick. That's not really the point. The point is, like you can tell with Sonny Stitt like he's a really good example, I think as well his licks are all an unlimited like repetition of creativity in the moment. He can play that same idea a hundred different ways in the moment. You know. So he has total command of his language and that's that. That's the aim I think is to do that.

Tom: 33:58

You know what I mean it sure is yeah, it's why we love jazz so much, isn't it yeah, because it's so flexible and it's so creative and also, and I think the thing is it's also so daunting as well.

Tom: 34:08

Yeah, say to like students just take the things you love. You know like, listen to it. It doesn't matter what it is. The solo I spent the most time with is this. Lester Young famous that at a gig. Because it's just so, I play that as the head and then it's kind of stupid because you play that as the head and then whatever you do afterwards is going to sound way worse. There's no chromaticism at all in it. Pure melody, without any chromaticism or enclosures or any tension. Really. Maybe there is one or two moments, but if that's what you love, just do that and internalize that as your language. Sing that on guitar comp, know on guitar comp the chords and sing, sing the solo every day. Do it in every key, play the solo every key. If you love Charlie Parker, then do the same thing with that. If you love Kurt Rosenwinkel, do it with that. You know what I mean.

Tom: 34:50

It's like that's the beautiful thing is just take what you love and then internalise it. So so, to finish off, I've got a few questions.

Geoff: 35:04

If that's alright, Pleasure, whatever you want. Okay, so do you have a favourite album?

Tom: 35:12

I don't know if it is my absolute favourite album or my favourite album now, but there's a record which is really important for me, which was a Gilad Hekselman record called Hearts Wide Open, and I often say this when people ask me that question because great band Gilad record called Hearts Wide Open. And I often say this when people ask me that question because great band Gilad Hekselman , Mark Turner, Marcus Gilmore, Joe Martin. I love the writing on that album and the playing is. It's incredible playing. But that record had such a big impact on me. I was a member of my first second year of college and I was already a fan of Gilad's playing and it resonated so strongly with me in terms of the songwriting aspect, I think that record really stands up. Came out it's 2010 or I think 2011, 2010. Still sounds incredible. So I have a really soft spot in my heart for that record.

Tom: 35:55

You know, yeah,

Geoff: 35:55

Favourite musician, alive or dead, that you would like to play with??

Tom: 35:59

John Scofield.

Geoff: 36:00

Excellent

Geoff: 36:01

. What about a highlight of your career or a best gig moment so far?

Tom: 36:09

Highlight of my career best gig With my band. I did two weeks in Asia with Ari Honig on drums and Conor Chaplin on bass. That was really, really fun. I had a really good time Also playing every night with those guys. I felt like we made some really, really good music and incredible crowds and yeah, music, the most important thing, like we made amazing music and the hang was incredible and stuff.

Geoff: 36:29

What was the last concert you attended?

Tom: 36:35

Well, Scofield was quite recently, yeah the Scofield thing was two weeks ago, but I've been to. I've been to something since then. I know exactly what it was. I was just last week in Turkey for the week playing some gigs and, um, the guy who helped bring me there, um, I arrived the day before his band were playing at this little club called Noasis. It's guitar player called Barish Arslan, so I went to his band and he sounded amazing. I haven't heard him for a few years. He sounded fantastic. That was a week ago today, great. So yeah cool.

Geoff: 37:03

What would you say was your musical weakness?

Tom: 37:07

Overplaying oh playing too much yeah that could happen to me a lot if I'm uncomfortable or the tempo's too fast. So if it's really fast tempo tune or I'm a little uncomfy, I just I don't know why because you think it'd be the opposite. Because you think it'd be the opposite, because you think if the tune's really fast it makes sense just to slow down and take a minute, or if you're uncomfortable, just take a second and just. But that's something I don't know why. I don't want to say I haven't sorted it out at all. It probably has got to be better.

Tom: 37:37

But I know, yeah, if I'm not comfortable or just relaxed, I kind of think I just go into this like machine gun, but not even in a good way, because sometimes people play the machine gun, playing on guitar, because I'm really good, it's. It's kind of about space, but if you listen to Charlie Parker, there's not that much space, it's. So it's wrong to say it's about not leaving space specifically, but it's about not being comfortable, so it's not being in control, really, of the song, you know?

Geoff: 38:01

So that leads me to my next question. Do you ever get nervous on stage?

Geoff: 38:03

Yeah.

Geoff: 38:04

This has got something to do with that.

Tom: 38:05

Yeah, I think it.

Tom: 38:06

Yeah, Particularly when I'm playing my own music, particularly when you're playing with new people for the first time, you're just a bit self-conscious, honestly, thinking, oh like, is this going okay or is this quite right, or have I explained myself well in terms of what I want or do they like it or like you know?

Tom: 38:23

That's a good example that tour I did with Aaron or there's plenty of other people like that I've worked with, where the first night or two I think I was just thinking is the music sounding good, is my writing sounding okay? Just a bit self-conscious, honestly, and so bit in my own head. And I listened to I've got records, quite a lot of skis, I listen to myself at the end of the tour compared to the start, you know it sounds. Any clips I posted from that tour, uploaded on YouTube at the end, not the beginning, and I could sometimes be nervous if I was playing in front of a especially large crowd could just be like a festival gig and you know, in front of 500 or up to a thousand people, or playing to a in a small room but full of musicians and I can just see them all looking.

Tom: 38:59

You know like particularly if it's someone like I remember. I remember the first gig I ever did at Ronnie Scott's was after George Benson and he sat and listened to my whole set. I remember was really frightened yeah and then, about a year later, I remember touring with Bill McHenry, great saxophonist, and we played after Joe Lovano and he sat and listened to the whole set and I remember just thinking, oh, this is just a disaster, like I'm just, I just got to retire, you know retire after one gig, you know.

Tom: 39:24

So yeah, those things can make you uncomfortable, I think you know, but I'm not normally nervous, but honestly, but there are definitely situations where I could be uncomfortable or could be nervous.

Geoff: 39:33

I met George Benson once. We played opposite him with Jamie Cullum Trio wow, fantastic yeah and he came up to us afterwards and, yeah, man, keep the group together. You know it was really complimentary and stuff.

Tom: 39:43

Yeah, yeah, Well, I remember the worst thing was about that was that I total like cringe moment was that I it was the first time I played at Ronnie's and his show finished like two hours late, so the late show started at like 1.30. And I remember being pretty tired and, honestly, a bit I was really nervous that night, you know, because it was like I knew he was there. I remember walking into the backstage area of Ronnie's and he was just there, topless, with his entourage around him looking at me like what the hell are you doing in here? I think, oh, my career's over before it's even started, you know. But he actually, from what I remember, he was a very nice guy.

Tom: 40:23

And I thought very sweet that he sat and listened and honestly, I probably didn't sound particularly good. I don't think it was a particularly good set but he was really amazed that he sat and listened. You can tell that he's such a heavy musician oh my God, Talk about incredible guitar playing but you can tell he's someone who really loves music and he was willing just to check out some guy like who wasn't probably quite ready and not sounding super strong, but just kind of up for it. You know, and that's amazing, yeah, amazing.

Geoff: 40:53

What's your favourite sandwich?

Tom: 40:54

Oh, wow, Okay. Favourite sandwich? Okay, Jesus, Okay.

Tom: 40:56

You weren't expecting that, were you?

Tom: 40:58

No, I wasn't Favourite Um favourite sandwich. I feel like, whatever I say, it's the wrong answer somehow.

Tom: 41:05

It isn't the wrong answer. Turkey and cranberry. Oh, okay, very good. What about a favourite movie? Just quick answers. Come on, what's?

Tom: 41:11

your favourite movie, Shawshank Redemption.

Geoff: 41:14

Good choice. It's come up a lot, that one actually.

Geoff: 41:16

Has it yeah.

Geoff: 41:17

Favourite venue?

Geoff: 41:18

The Vortex in London, oh, Vortex in London, oh nice, okay. And a favourite country or city to go? To Paris, okay. And finally, what's your favourite chord?

Tom: 41:27

You want me to play it?

Geoff: 41:28

Well , give us a couple of your favourite chords.

Tom: 41:30

I love that Brazilian guitarist, Toninho Horta. He always plays this chord. It's this like it comes from harmonic minor. It's like well, you can do it like this, so that's a beautiful chord. I love more simple chords, stuff like that. Tell us what that last one was. So this is like a major 7, sharp 11 with a flat 9 in it. So it comes from that. I love that sound.

Tom: 41:58

I try and use that a lot, actually Chords with 6s in it, or just something like this Duke Ellington, he never really plays major 7 chords, he plays 6 chords I try and use that a lot actually Chords with sixes in them, or just something like this it's a Duke Ellington, he never really plays major seven chords. He plays six chords, so I really love that. That would be my other favourite. Yeah, excellent, well, tom thank you very much for your time, my pleasure, thanks for having me. Thanks for having me. I hope it was enjoyable. It was very enjoyable use it again Excellent.

Tom: 42:20

See you very soon, thanks.

Geoff: 42:20

Thanks so much for your time.

Tom: 42:22

Pleasure.

Announcement: 42:23

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