Geoff: 0:00

Hello podcats. Geoff Gascoyne here, hope you're well. Today I'm off to the West End of London to visit a bass superstar, a very old friend of mine. His name is Janek Gwizdala. He moved to America and became a very successful bass player, producer, publisher, podcaster, plays with everyone famous in the jazz world. We're going to have a chat about lots of things and catch up, so here we go.

Announcement: 0:36

The Quartet Jazz Standards podcast is brought to you by the Quartet app for iOS, taking your jazz play along to another level.

Geoff: 0:44

Janek, how are you?

Janek: 0:46

Jet-lagged. I don't actually think I've been here long enough to be jet-lagged, though. We just had a nice curry, though We did. That's the only reason I'm upright right now and sort of you know, able to put words into a sentence. Yeah, that ability will deteriorate over the course of this interview, I'm sure.

Geoff: 1:03

Can we start talking about how you got started in jazz?

Janek: 1:06

Yeah, I mean, it was definitely about going to see Tubby Wadlow, as he's affectionately known by me and a very few people. Of course we're talking about Lawrence Cottle initially. That was like the actual moment, I would say. But there were a lot of moments around there, one of which I was talking to the drummer of not that long ago, maybe a year ago Tristan Mailliot , because I used to come and see you play with Tristan at the Drift Bridge in Epsom. Really, I wish there was video on this podcast, because the look Geoff is giving me like, whoa, that gig. You were born in South London, weren't you? Yeah, I was born in Hammersmith Hospital, grew up in Greenwich initially. For five minutes, I'm just trying to delay the moment that I use the word Mitcham.

Janek: 1:52

What's wrong with Mitcham? I think there are a lot of things wrong with Mitcham, probably still to this day. I think it's probably just more expensive now than anything.

Announcement: 2:02

But yeah, I grew up in South London fairly un-jazzy.

Janek: 2:08

You know, I don't know how you would grow up, jazzy, unless you're my daughter or your kids.

Janek: 2:11

Yeah, but, yeah, no, that was. It came kind of late to me in terms of being into jazz and wanting to play it, but when it happened it was immediate. It was Sunday at the Gun Tavern in Croydon. Yeah, it was Sunday at the Gun Tavern in Croydon. Yeah, Ian Thomas, Graham, Harvey, Lawrence Cottle, Nigel Hitchcock. Yeah, Claire Martin funny, you just mentioned that tune as well. Claire Martin sat in and sang Pedido that day. I have the cassette tape.

Janek: 2:33

A friend of mine bootlegged the very first show that I saw It's funny how you can remember things like that clearly, isn't it? First so clearly?

Janek: 2:41

Yeah, I remember, you know the Gun Tavern which you must remember, right, the sticky floor and the smell of day old beer. You know, not the nicest thing in the world. But all I wanted to be was a drummer. Friend of mine. getting me to the gig was predicated on the drummer being good, didn't give a ** who Lawrence was or the bass or anything, and that was it Sunday morning. Monday morning went to Gig Sounds in Lewisham and a bass. And I think I met you very soon after, because that was Wavendon.

Janek: 3:09

And I'd only been playing about two weeks then, so that all happened two weeks before I met you.

Geoff: 3:14

And I was a teacher there right?.

Janek: 3:15

Right, you were a teacher there. It was o two one-week courses and, like everything I've done in my life, I went for the first week and called my mum and said can I stay for the second?

Geoff: 3:30

Oh yes, and did I remember that so well? I remember your energy as well. I remember you bobbing around.

Janek: 3:33

Oh, I was mental. Yeah, I was like I was 15. You know this was literally 31 years ago, but yeah, and I remember I played my first gig at the end of that. I'd studied with you for two weeks at Wabhampton and literally went home to London to a gig at London Bridge in a wine cellar and opened the Real Book at Lettery, because the only thing I could do was read. I could read really well, but I couldn't play jazz.

Geoff: 3:54

How come you could read. Did you learn before?

Janek: 3:56

Because I played classical guitar before and I played piano and I played all kinds of instruments. I played orchestral percussion with John Merriman Phil Merriman's brother, who I know has been on this podcast before. I played with John and another friend of ours, David Taylor, in the concert band, in the jazz band. I played piano in the orchestra. I played tuned percussion so I could read bass clef and treble clef really well and I knew what chord symbols were. I knew that a c was where the c was on the bass so I could open the Real Book and play root notes, sometimes a fifth, and make it through a gig of what would have been standards at the time. But having absolutely no clue who Sonny Stitt was, I remember actually quite vividly credited you for this many times over the years in interviews. What's the record where Art Pepper just got out of prison and meets the rhythm section 'You'd Be So Nice To Come Home To'.

Janek: 4:48

You told me to listen to Art Pepper Meets The Rhythm Section you told me to listen to probably Moon Mobley. Witch Hunt, oh yeah, Wayne Shorter and Hank Mobley, yep, the one with Irving Berlin.

Geoff: 5:03

Soul Station, Soul Station, exactly. So those three records hugely important.

Janek: 5:07

I came and had private lessons with you. Of course, after that. Later on, you were like you should check out these records if you're into jazz Great. But the fourth record you dropped on me and told me to check out, which changed my life and is the only reason I can play the bass today, was Michelle and Degu Cello, and I don't remember if it was Plantation Lullabies or Peace Beyond Passion or maybe both of them, but it was like.

Janek: 5:29

This is where there's some base, like this is where our instrument lives it was like one of the best pieces of advice I ever got and she's my favorite bass player of all time and has become.

Geoff: 5:41

Well, that record was.

Geoff: 5:42

That was probably mid nineties.

Janek: 5:45

Wasn't it That this all had to be early to mid 90s because, I was 15, yeah, like so 93 or something like that.

Geoff: 5:50

You know, there's certain records.

Geoff: 5:51

When you hear them for the first time and you can close your eyes, you can see the room.

Janek: 5:56

I remember being in your house when you were telling me about these records and you played a couple of cuts off them and like because you had them.

Geoff: 6:03

I remember where I was when I first heard that. I went and did a tour with a band called Us Three. Oh yeah, in 1994 or three I think, which is when that record came out. I can close my eyes and I can see the tour bus. Yeah, and I can see that music.

Janek: 6:17

When I first heard it, how powerful that music, hugely influential and she's an interesting artist as well, because she's been one of those people. We all have a moment with certain artists, maybe. Maybe you like a certain period of Miles, yeah, and you're really into the cooking relaxing period, but you're not really into the late 60s. Or you're really into the early 60s but you don't like the fusion stuff. Yeah.

Janek: 6:39

And maybe you listen to the 60s. And then you were really disappointed when he went rock, r Meshell has has been one of those people that I love so much. She has taught me not to have expectations about the next album because she did so much different. Bitter and all those records that came after that, like Plantation Lullabies, Peace Beyond Passion, but very groove orientated, funky, ridiculous bass playing that she did most of and then it really changed. She went in a complete, some punk, some rock.

Janek: 7:04

You know but that takes balls, doesn't it, to do that? Absolutely yeah, absolutely, but as a result, that's what I've tried to do my entire career. I think I'm on album number 17 now and I'm in a part of my life where I've decided to make three albums a year for the rest of my life. So I'm trying to make like at least another 60 or 70 records before the end of my life, and none of them are going to be the same. Yeah, I haven't found the formula that works. Some of my records, although not popular at all, the ones that had some notoriety or popularity I could so easily go and do that again. I could call the same people and go and write different tunes and do the same thing again. I've always tried not to. I think Meshell taught me that in a big way.

Geoff: 7:47

Did you ever play double bass? Did you ever try to play double bass?

Janek: 7:50

I was forced.

Janek: 7:52

Everyone who went to the Royal Academy of Music had to go and have a cup of tea with Jeff Klein once a week, you know? Right.

Geoff: 7:58

But it wasn't for you right,

Janek: 8:00

Absolutely not.

Janek: 8:17

And Jeff was so cool about he knew he knew I wasn't interested. He knew I wasn't interested in playing, but he knew I loved or something and he would play me, like you know John Patitucci VHS's or or Jazz Messenger's Things or something with. you know with swing in it, we talk about music. I think ** about the actual instrument wasn't for me, but some of my favorite bass players in the world are upright bass players.

Geoff: 8:39

You know, um, Why do you think it wasn't for you.

Janek: 8:41

I mean, it's bloody hard, I know that but it's everything's hard if you do it well. Why do you think it wasn't for you? I mean, it's bloody hard. I know that Everything's hard if you do it well. I know a pan flute player from Romania. Might be a dumb instrument on the face of it, but that guy can play Giant Steps. I don't think anything is hard if you do it well. I think the music I gravitated more towards in my late teens, early 20s, was obviously fusion music and didn't feature that instrument. As much as.

Janek: 9:02

I love listening to Miles and all that stuff from the 50s, 40s, 50s, 60s. I was listening to The Yellow Jackets. I was listening to Tribal Tech and Gary. Willis, yeah, I was listening to Anthony Jackson with Steve Kahn and Dave Weckl.

Janek: 9:11

That was the music I was into,

Geoff: 9:13

But that was a big time in the 90s, wasn't it?

Janek: 9:15

everyone was in their prime, you know you think of Gary Willis and Jimmy Haslip and all those great bass players at that time, completely in their prime in the 90s, at the absolute peak. And there was me getting into improvised music, for want of a better word. You know I hate the term jazz, to be honest, um, because I think maybe that's getting towards being 80, 90 years old in its truest sense, but, but I like the term improvised music and, yeah, I tried not to have any prejudices and at the same time tried not to let people like Graham Collier push me into.

Janek: 9:56

'You have to do this because this is part of jazz Actually.

Janek: 10:00

I don't give a **. Don't confuse me with someone who has any f**ks to give. I've always sort of been a little bit like that. Knew what I want pretty much right away, and then just go after it.

Geoff: 10:11

When did you move to America?

Janek: 10:12

98.

Geoff: 10:13

Was that an easy decision for you to take?

Janek: 10:15

Yeah, very easy, A bold decision, ? Looking back on it 100% as a 46-year-old man right now and parent and husband and everything, totally bonkers. At the time I didn't care worry, I was 19. I was going to school.

Geoff: 10:31

So I had that little…. You went to Berkeley, didn't you? Yeah, I went to Berkeley.

Janek: 10:34

As with the Royal Academy of Music, I went in 97 into 98, and then I went to Berkeley in 98. And I lasted as much time at each institution one academic year basically, um, before I quit and moved to New York. But I had that buffer, that little like cushy little zone, and, fortunate to be there with Walter Smith, Jaleel Shaw, uh, Kendrick Scott I mean the list of people that were in not only in my year but were in my scholarship ensemble. My scholarship ensemble was Kendrick Scott, Rashawn Ross, Walter Smith, I mean it was ridiculous. And I got there, like Lionel Loeke I mean those were my guys, you know, in the ensemble room, jamming until two in the morning every night. That's what made me make the decision not to go home after Berkeley when I quit, but to move to New York. And yeah, move to New York. And yeah, it was a totally insane idea.

Janek: 11:29

And here I am I've been 27 years.

Geoff: 11:32

When you were starting out, yeah, um, with improvisation. What was your methods for learning to improvise? Did you transcribe? yes, for example

Janek: 11:43

Absolutely like.

Janek: 11:44

I think you probably told me about that. Lawrence told me about that. Um, I used to hang a lot of Lawrence's house and he always had this notebook. I'm sure we all have notebooks right that we make. I don't think I've seen yours, but I saw Lawrence's a lot and it was just like little four note phrase or a chord progression or a bass line. So, and just, Mike Stern calls them the scrolls, the scrolls of knowledge. Mike Stern has hundreds of them tucked under the bed and I have dozens, at least now, and that was very much drilled into me from an early age. If you want to play this music, you have to listen.

Janek: 12:19

And then repetition and having almost a limitless amount of willpower to do the work. But I loved the work right from the beginning. I got completely immersed in it and never looked back. It was also like an escape route for me as well, from my childhood and where I was in London, and it was just like a way out. I'm not saying I was living in The Projects and I got a basketball scholarship to go make millions of dollars. I'm not trying to make any parallels to that kind of life, which is a very real thing, especially in the US but for my specific set of circumstances and what I knew I didn't want to do, which was stay where I was right. This was an amazing uh. The train was leaving and I was going to be definitely going to be on it.

Geoff: 13:03

You know you've had an amazing career. You know doing what you've done.

Janek: 13:06

Well, I think I just did it, you know, without thinking about it. That's why, when you say it's like, yeah, it's a big move, I wasn't thinking about it in those turns back then you know, and we've talked. I know we've talked about this before over the years, especially when you were in New York a lot, when I was still living there and you were touring there, we would see each other and you were like, yeah, the time to do it was when you did it. Yeah, like you at that time, 20 years ago, was saying like I couldn't do this now.

Janek: 13:32

And. I did it at the right time, cause I think if I was back in the UK right now I got very fortunate. Man, like you threw me gigs like I played with a lot of the you know Sax, Appeal and all the bands. You know the bands that we all did back then, and obviously me as an 18 year old kid just getting my feet wet, but I did so many of the gigs right away.

Janek: 13:55

Yeah, and I was like if I'm still doing like God bless Derek and all the gigs that I did not a bad word to be said against anyone. They were beautiful people. I learned a ** load but I knew at the time if I was still doing that gig in 30 years time I would regret not having tried to go and play with the people I loved. You know I wanted to play with Bob Berg and Gary Novak and Dave Kikoski. Like Bob Berg's band was my, the pinnacle of like fusion meets jazz meets kind of a little bit straight ahead, especially in the 90s with that new standard all-stars, like we're talking about jazz in this podcast.

Janek: 14:30

that was sort of a new little like bump into Gary Novak sounding quasi straight ahead, but also from this Chick Corea Elektric Band thing but playing the vocabulary of Coltrane and Lehman, all these other things from the past all coming together in this, like with with Kokoski behind it all, like driving the bus from the back. You know that was huge and I knew I wanted that, to be in that energy.

Janek: 14:55

You know, when I sat behind Gary Novak at Ronnie Scott's every night for two weeks when he still had the hair and just my face is melting from the energy of the drums, I'm like how the hell is Ed Howard hanging on back there?

Janek: 15:08

I never forget those days, man.

Geoff: 15:10

When I was coming to New York all the time and you used to come and hang with us. Yes, that was hilarious. Jamie Cullum Trio went to play at the Algonquin um, which was a very. Legendary music listening room.

Geoff: 15:23

Yeah, legendary, yeah, so uptight.

Geoff: 15:27

Yeah, I mean you rocked up in your, in your baseball cap, in your Nikes. Yeah, yeah, one one yeah, oh that was so funny, yeah, yeah I mean 2002, 2003.

Janek: 15:39

I was so deep in the smooth jazz world really that's why I was wearing all those clothes. They were all free. We all were sponsored by Nike. I was playing with an artist who was the only non-athlete to be signed to Nike for a clothing deal. Wow, that's cool signature suits and shoes and stuff.

Geoff: 15:54

We did a Tommy Hilfiger. There you go.

Janek: 15:56

Thing same, thing, yeah, yeah, but that's not happening, playing like you know All The Things You Are. This was like Smooth Jazz CD 101.9, when that thing was like you know, I we talked earlier on a little bit, you know, like records, producing regular stuff. That was, I was producing Ronnie Jordan stuff back then, like deep in the smooth jazz world, and I was playing with a guy called Mike Phillips and, as a result, Jeff Lauber and Kirk Whalum, and, and, and, and we do these. We'd be the house band for jazz, smooth jazz festivals.

Geoff: 16:24

Oh my god. When you came to New York, this was the first things you did um, a lot of it was smooth j azz

Janek: 16:30

There was a like two solid years of that touring non-stop in in the US non-non-stop. But also the story I was talking about earlier on, about auditioning for my first pop gig and getting it based on having a photograph of myself, wasn't even based on playing that actually happened in 2000.

Janek: 16:48

That guy's album came out on 9 11. Right, and we had worked for seven months before that. It was the most requested song on radio in the US and the album came out on 9 11 and it was all over. It just ended, him and Mariah, Mariah Carey had an album come out on 9 11.

Geoff: 17:03

I. I remember when 9-11 happened, we were away out with Jamie as well, and it all changed. I used to carry a double bass round in case it all changed.

Janek: 17:11

Forget that, bass du jour from that point on. Yeah, exactly.

Geoff: 17:15

And.

Janek: 17:15

I was in New York, saw it all happen live, and Simon Carter was there with Jamiroquai. We'd gone to see Jamiroquai September 10th at the Hammerstein Ballroom. The Michael Jackson reunion the history tour was at Madison Square Garden, across the street. It was crazy. And there were all these English people in town. There was a big award show or something. Frank Tonto, Craig David was in town, Tony Remy, all these people. And nobody could leave.

Janek: 17:42

It was a crazy time in New York and then I moved to LA. Why did you move to LA? Ex-wife Right, you know, because she moved out there because she was an actress and I followed and I had a pop gig with this girl called Gem and I moved out there 2000, kind of 2008, 2009,. But then the gig fell through two weeks into living out there and I was like totally screwed. So I went back to New York. I picked up another big pop tour in 2010,. Basically played 300 shows in one year, which was insane. And then by the end of that year that was when I ditched the keys in New York and didn't go back.

Janek: 18:17

So, I've been in. LA for about 15 years. full time. Right, but five years back and forth before that. So yeah, that's the other thing about America that a lot of people, unless you live there, don't realize how big it is, or unless you tour there, you don't have so much it is immense.

Geoff: 18:31

It's about five different countries all in one.

Janek: 18:33

Yeah, and everything's a flight unless you're doing really small, stops along the way. You can go and do radio promo in Florida and it'll take you two weeks just to get through a state. You come to the UK, you hit three radio stations and you're done. That's right, it's like really so yeah, when I was living in New York and LA simultaneously, that was a lot of miles on the plane.

Geoff: 18:54

Can you talk us through your books and your YouTube channel? Yeah, because you've made a great success of that, haven't you?

Janek: 19:00

Well, yeah, I mean life has changed. I always joke now that I used to just be a bass player. I really did. I used to just pick up the bass and play it all the time and that's completely changed. And I've been very particular more recently about how much I get engaged with the internet, because there's a total minefield of, of nonsense, basically, and it can really I think it can drag you in in all the wrong ways and sort of really screw up your decision-making and your musical choices.

Janek: 19:28

You sort of lose sight of the of the point so yeah, I engage with YouTube and that's it. I don't have any social media. Essentially.

Janek: 19:38

yeah, I write books, like you said. I'm on the 22nd or 23rd book right now, all about bass and about music and philosophies of music, certain elements, specific elements like sight reading or playing chords or harmony. There's a, we've cast the web quite wide at this point, no, and we are not, amazingly, not running out of ideas. There are like nine books in the in the can waiting to go. You know it's insane and as a medium it is shocking how popular a book is and we've recently figured out why and I say we all the time because my wife works on them with me. My wife is a fantastic bass player and also amazing designer and music copyist, so if you have one of my books.

Janek: 20:21

She's the reason you can read it. We are kind of shocked that the book is so popular when there's so much scrollable TikTok, Instagram stuff right on your phone. the book is still really popular, even in physical format. But we also realized why very recently. It's because it is a very low commitment purchase. If you purchase a subscription it kicks you in the ass every month for ten dollars, twenty dollars, forty dollars the book. you buy it once and it's all on you to use it as much or as little as you want and it never costs you anything ever again. So very interesting psychological way that this very old format has stayed incredibly relevant. Having a physical piece of paper on the music stand is a great thing. I love it.

Janek: 21:03

Yeah, I do too And I'm a big fan of reading. I come from a classical background like all those things. Literally joking online today with a very, very popular bass youtuber, Adam Neely, about, we got a bit of a a bit of a conversation, shall we say, about a situation that developed in Italy not that long ago, very controversial case of somebody stealing other people's stuff and selling it and faking their videos, blah, blah, blah, blah blah. I've affectionately named this moron Guacamole Tuna. Real name is Giacomo Tura, for anyone who wants to go look into that saga but.

Janek: 21:37

Adam Neely published a video about it and we went back and forth a little bit. Someone suggested that we maybe have a little beef and we do a YouTube boxing match because that's, that's the thing now the two influencers. They do boxing on YouTube and it's a huge thing. I suggested maybe we have a sight reading contest, so he was all for it and uh all in good fun and but, I'm a fan of that side of things.

Janek: 21:58

you know, I think there are a lot of sort of lost arts of what we do that are falling by the wayside. Yeah, because they're just not necessary anymore in so many instances.

Geoff: 22:10

I totally agree with you. It doesn't make them any less valuable. Yeah, so many people just call themselves musicians who just have a laptop, right, right.

Janek: 22:21

And there are some very immensely musical and creative people who use digital means to create their music. But, yeah, I will say, one of my main reasons for disengaging from the internet in general and social media is because it became too, too much of that. You know, it's like used to be a meritocracy, like you used to actually have to play, to have a gig, you stuff to have to do the thing in order to be in the room Now you can just pretend and everyone goes, wow, isn't that amazing.

Janek: 22:46

But you know that's fake, right? No, no, it's a genius.

Geoff: 22:50

Yeah, no, it's all fake, oh wow. How did you get to where you are now, though? How did that build up over the years? How did you get that started?

Janek: 22:58

Actually by having a podcast.

Janek: 23:01

When podcast started, it just came up. It was, like you know, Apple, Steve Jobs did a keynote speech and, like we're launching podcasts, I watched all Steve Jobs' speeches, very fascinating, big fan. I was like podcast, that seems ** easy and free, let's do that. And I did it. I've had a podcast since 2006. Right, when Adam Carolla, like a decade before Joe Rogan, almost like I've been on the bleeding edge of podcasting and that was another surprising thing back then, when it was audio only, it actually engaged people.

Geoff: 23:29

Yeah.

Janek: 23:30

I think it's all about being honest and creating a relationship with your audience.

Janek: 23:34

Yeah, I've always been like this is me, this is what I do, and I think the people who are along for the ride appreciate that, and those who aren't, great, I don't need you. I think cultivating a mailing list as old school as that is, like a literal email list is by far my most valuable asset as a small business owner. Yeah, I've got almost 100,000 subscribers on YouTube, but it pales in comparison to what an email list of like a fifth of the size does, for actually communicating with people.

Janek: 24:04

So, I think, gaining trust, being really open and honest, also being open about the process as well. We're talking about jazz and learning improvisation and how jazz has played a pivotal role in my life and your life, of course. Like being open about the fact that I think I suck most of the time, but I've got fans who, like, worship me as, like I can't do anything wrong. No, no, no, no, no. I do all wrong most of the time and sometimes I get it right and then I go home and cry because I know I'm not going to get it right the next time, like it's really. Those are the thoughts that go through my head and I share that with people, and people are like, oh shit, he leaves his mistakes in. When I make a video and I'm explaining something, I don't polish it up or go back and do five more takes. I just say, oh, I didn't get that right. Look at that.

Janek: 24:48

And trying to teach people that the only time you learn something is when you make a mistake. Great, play the 2-5-1 lick that you know how to play. Great, you do that for the rest of your life and you'll never get it wrong and learn nothing but curiosity. That's going to be your friend jazz. You know I don't think people give jazz enough of a uh, enough credit for being a language as the Turkish or or Hebrew or something you know like they. Just they're like. It's such a a monetized and institutionalized commodity now and has been since the 60s almost when I think Grant Collier was one of the first people who went to Berkeley in the 60s, almost when I think Grant Collier was one of the first people who went to Berklee in the 60s. You know there's like, but you listen to Barry Harris and Barry Harris said what the f*** is, Dorian, you don't f*** call it Dorian, it's not Dorian.

Janek: 25:44

It's like, it's music, you know, like Steve Smith, who I'm here in London playing with. Yeah, most people know him for being the drummer in Journey and Journey and playing on Don't Stop Believing and Open Arms and all of these tunes. But this guy played with Ahmad Jamal, for Christ's sake, and he has the original handwritten charts and these huge, heavy pieces of paper. He showed them to us like once.

Janek: 26:07

We're on the piano player and we look at them and there's not a single chord symbol on the entire set. Not one chord symbol, just voicings. This is the sound I want. I don't want C7. What ** is C7? C7 is 50 different things, if you want it to be, and it's little things like that, little details that the monetization of jazz gets wrong most of the time. Because mom and dad can't send little Jimmy off to school if there's no curriculum, if it's vague, you know.

Geoff: 26:38

But this is the problem with teaching jazz, isn't it? It has to be made into an academic subject. Right Tragedy.

Janek: 26:44

It's very difficult, Yeah, with something that's so subjective and personal, and you know I'll be the first to admit that there are building blocks that perhaps we would all benefit from having a grasp of. That you can theoretically analyse in a theoretical sense, okay, fine, but four years of that in university and year four you're still talking about technical terms,

Geoff: 27:06

Whether I was fortunate or not, but I didn't go to college. So Right, well, You went to art school right, I went to art school.

Geoff: 27:12

Yeah, so that meant I just taught myself everything about jazz. So I worked out my own method to learn how to play Right. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing, I don't know.

Janek: 27:22

I think that's a great thing. I think I spent as little time as possible at the two schools I went to. I figured it out very quickly that this is bullshit, basically Right, and I got the most out of hanging out with teachers, private teachers people with experience more experience than me, great experience, big gigs.

Janek: 27:39

I'm getting goosebumps about it now because that's the time I remember getting excited. Oh there's this thing Jeff's doing this gig and literally we look back on it now and it could literally be the story of your bass falling off the stage. It could literally be just like a little gig at the Festival Hall foyer. But I got excited about knowing you were doing that gig as a 16-year-old kid and thinking whoa.

Janek: 28:01

I could be on that stage one day. Yeah, it's great. F*** me, you know.

Janek: 28:04

And, as a result, I don't think I've lost sight of that.

Geoff: 28:07

You probably, I'm sure you'll remember when we were on tour with Jamie and the trumpet player left.

Janek: 28:15

I was hoping to avoid this one, but go on.

Geoff: 28:17

No, it's a great. I think it's a great story. So you learned to play trumpet, right? Yeah, just so that you could get in the band right, yeah. It didn't work out in the end it wasn't very successful, but hats off to you, you know.

Janek: 28:30

Well, the funny thing was and I don't know if you were sitting with them at the time, but Jamie called me, if you were sitting with them at the time, but Jamie called me and I want to say you were like some sort of sporting event, might even have been the Olympics somewhere and Jamie said I'm going to call Janek and ask him who I should get to be the multi-instrumentalist, but obviously mainly a trumpet player in the band. And Sebastian leaned over to him and he said you know he's going to say him right, Like Sebastian already, because this we're talking about my roommate in college, Sebastian de Krom.

Janek: 29:01

Like he already knew I was going to like go find a trumpet and learn how to play it, to do the gig. And Jamie's like nah, but you did and I did. And then Jamie said something along the lines to Bash about, like if he says that I'm absolutely going to give him a chance to do it, I won't even think about anyone else. And apparently Bash told me later he got off the phone and Jamie's like no f***ing way, like yeah, that just shows you that you know the determination.

Janek: 29:27

I loved it. That's the thing. I just was in love with it.

Geoff: 29:31

You did, yeah, and you were at every concert we did and you would hang out with us and it was just a great hang and it was. I mean it was. It was good times, you know for us, you know for all of us, you know it was brilliant. Yeah, I've asked you to play a standard for us. Yeah, Sorry, but you've jet lagged and you're. Not even jet lag, I've just been up for 40 hours.

Janek: 29:55

Now. That's what? Is it? 30 something hours because I have flight delay and everything and I've been to sleep here. What time is it now? It's like uh, it's nine, nine pm here yeah all right, uh, so I've picked a tune. Have I right, you have?

Geoff: 30:08

Yeah, I have. What have you picked?

Janek: 30:10

I've picked my. Why did I do this to myself? I should have picked Blue Bossa, but I picked You can.

Geoff: 30:14

You can choose what, No, no it's just because it's the one thing I can probably remember. Um, okay, it's, it's weird, right, like just as soon as you started mentioning standards. It's something that has been so incredibly important as a framework to work on motivic development, melodic development, like just um understanding harmony, you know, development, like just um understanding harmony. Uh, you know, key changes, the whole neck of the. It's like so such a pivotal thing for me, like playing standards, but I haven't played them in like 20 years, you know, like you know, and that's not strictly true, because Mike Stern will call a standard but he has like five that he wants to play, right, so we play, you know, Alone Together, and ee Dolphin bring Dolphin Street so I don't consider.

Geoff: 30:59

I can't go to a club in New York and just go. Yeah, every time somebody turns around and names a tune, yeah, you know, because I just haven't done in my whole life so this is a little bit of a challenge like that, but it's a nostalgic one, shall we say E ,, all right, that's the other thing. I do grab a tune once in a while and just play it at home, and it happens to be a moment's notice this week.

Geoff: 31:18

I'll give you two choruses. Two choruses, okay, all right. First chorus will be like the tune oh, okay, with the kicks, all right. And the second chorus will be walking. We're not playing the tune, so you can just improvise. Yeah, I don't to unplug one of these mics, and then we're going to so so do, do Oh nice, it's all happening here yeah, a little bit of a WestEnd, end, West d western. That was great. How did that feel?

Janek: 33:18

Awful. I mean not just for me personally. It's like, um, we should explain to the listeners I'm sort of, uh, propped up at the end of the bed. It's hardly um the posture I strive for, but um, so many things go through my head with that like and it's it's interesting, like the framework here is it was two choruses for this and I'm like I start to think too much in two choruses.

Janek: 33:42

One thing I've been really conscious of lately is not playing for the audience when I make records. Never never, ever, ever playing for the audience, just playing for myself. It ends up being a far more honest performance. At the end of the day, it's what I want to listen to. It's the the day, it's what I want to listen to. It's the reason I make the music. If people want to listen to that, that's fantastic. Then they're a fan great. But I'm not doing it for them and thoughts of that creep in to doing something like this because I'm like shit, I want to do it for them. Right now it's two choruses. I've got to give them something Like we, like we're here doing a really specific dialed in thing. So my first reaction, unfortunately, through the first half of chorus was thinking way too much.

Janek: 34:22

That would probably be very easy to to identify and maybe I get more into a flow in the second chorus yeah, you know what I mean, yep um so, yeah, just uh, adjusting for the unrealistic uh uh circumstances under which we're recording right now is very interesting and, at the same time, it exposes time, which is one of the most important things. Literally, my entire merch is time and sound Like all my T-shirts, all my hats that's what. I talk about my entire life is time, and sound.

Geoff: 34:55

So, on a technical level, when you're playing Moment's Notice, are you thinking of chord centers? Are you thinking of specific two, five ones? Just give me an example of how you would start to approach playing that tune.

Janek: 35:06

Yeah, well, luckily good that I chose this tune. Um, I actually made a video for my YouTube channel about this the other day which I didn't intend to be a lesson. I intended to the video, video It it comes out tomorrow actually, and it's entitled like I Left All the Mistakes In and it's just me practicing for about 15 minutes working on this tune . Okay

Janek: 35:24

Something came up in the middle of that which really speaks to your question here about how I approach it that I decided to stop, break the fourth wall and talk to the camera and say, oh, actually I, I'm doing this right now. But it's very important to say I only do this when I'm practicing. I'm not thinking about anything when I play the tune. Zero, it's all muscle memory. The only two things I'm ever conscious of when I'm improvising are repetition and change. Have I been working on the same kind of idea for too long, in which case we need to move, we need to change, or am I all over the place? Do I need some more repetition to center the story? Then, okay, we use repetition. That's basically the only two things I'm not thinking of.

Janek: 36:01

Oh, it's E, minor to F to E. I'm not thinking about any two fives. Okay, nothing, just because I've done thousands of hours of playing this ** tune. Yeah, it's all under the finger, I don't have to think about it. But there are certain things when I'm like, perhaps stagnated, and I'm like I know I've played that before and don't want to do it again So so you're talking about licks.

Janek: 36:20

Yeah, if I hear things coming up, pieces of vocabulary. We've all used the word and and if and but and to and from a bajillion times. We don't get upset because we use the word and if, but to and from. But if I just say hey, go and and dan, dan, dan, dan, dan, dan, dan, dan dan, I get a bit boring, you know. So there are moments like that where I realize I'm perhaps making the same point. We can't make the analogy to a single word, but maybe I'm saying the same phrase. I really like to make the parallel between spoken language and improvisation.

Janek: 36:49

Maybe, I'm using the same phrase over and over again. Yo man. I'm saying yo man, like over, and yo yo, what's up? Yo, that'll get annoying after a while. So that's that's where I'm at and in order to do to break that up and to have more information, more vocabulary for this tune, I think about it when I'm practicing, but never when I'm performing. If I think about it when I'm performing, I'm bullshitting you Moment's. Notice for those of you playing the home game is a lot of two-fives. There's two-fives everywhere Moves, all over the place, 50 different key centers. Maybe I'm trying to get rid of some of the fives in place.

Janek: 37:21

I know a lot of people see a two-five and they lean on the five more than the two In order to get maybe a little bit of a different flavor.

Janek: 37:31

I expand on the two a little bit and then I'm working up one, five, nine, ten, five flat seven, nine, on the top maybe a eleven, but that. But when they're moving past at a real clip then you get into some interesting. That sounds more like linear playing, slowed down and exposed. It sounds, yeah, okay, more like just an arpeggio and a chord. But when you get it going at a bit of a clip then it starts to sound interesting.

Janek: 38:01

And very hard, not just interesting, it's not easy yeah, I've had to work on it a little bit. And then the first three bars, for instance, are E to A, f to Bb, ending on this Eb. You're on this E flat major seven. I've also been trying to introduce Eb flat major seven, sharp nine. So I'm getting a minor third, a major third in the in what is the one chord at that point? So, basically, Eb flat, Eb flat major seven, sharp nine, being the sixth mode of G harmonic minor. Get very technical now, yeah. So I mean you've got to be some jazz nerds, listen to this podcast, and if you want a jazz nerd, yeah, you will be by the end of it. So, basically, what that allows you to get this really nice, instead of just our plain old with our nice little natural nine on the E flat, we get into All these other sounds which are totally E flat.

Janek: 39:01

They are totally the one chord just a little bit of a different flavour and the fact that it goes by so quick, man working on those things, getting those things into the playing is hard but it's a great result coming at the end of it.

Geoff: 39:13

Have you ever looked at sort of bebop vocabulary over something like this? Yeah, I mean, a ton of what I'm playing in there is like, what you're doing, there is something else that's not bebop what I'm doing right there for sure is something else there are a lot of like, yeah, A lot of chromatic approach note things.

Janek: 39:27

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, there's a lot of bebop in there. And yes, of course, I mean I think it was Tim Garland who validated that I'd listened to bebop. You know these words come around. You know, when you were young and I was like 17 or 16, 17 or something, and I was on another jazz course up north somewhere and Tim was teaching and I had checked out a lot of bebop, you know, Sonny Stitt and Charlie Parker and Dizzy and all these people yeah and I played a solo on something and Tim turned around and said, well yeah, Janek taking more, more of a bebop approach to that.

Janek: 40:05

And I was like, am I? Oh great, yeah, like it's coming out in my playing. And that was one of those moments where you're like, oh yeah, I've worked on this stuff.

Geoff: 40:12

I think a lot of that is to do with the music you're playing.

Geoff: 40:14

If you're playing Blues for Alice or something, you're going to sound like a bebop. If you're playing a modal thing or maybe some of the music that you play more modal music and more sort of funk music.

Janek: 40:24

Again, like jazz standards and like the framework of chord changes and AABA forms and stuff like that.

Janek: 40:30

Bebop has been amazingly useful, but it's not something I lean on every day. You know I do all these. I have all of these like bebop, approach, exercise and stuff. I've got tons of in my books.

Janek: 40:47

I use them all the time because they great technical you know,

Geoff: 40:50

Now, to me that sounds like classical music, that sounds like Bach or something.

Janek: 40:54

It's the Hannon, yeah virtuoso pianist.

Janek: 40:57

That was my Bible when I was a kid, my dad was a piano player.

Janek: 41:03

I did it every day, every stinking day. But when you put a, when you put a chromatic approach either above, above or below to each of the starting points of the four note cell, and you're right, of course it's Bach, it starts to sound like jazz. Bebop is Bach. Listen to Brad Meldau being interviewed by Rick Beato, and there's a whole thing where they talk about Bach and Brad goes well, of course, and he plays Bach and you're like, well, that could have been in 1940 in Charlie Parker's band. Incredible, yeah.

Geoff: 41:33

You know, yeah, amazing, so yeah, yeah. So to finish off, can I just have a few questions Just? Quickfire questions Quickfire questions which I ask everybody. Okay, some of them will be easier to answer than others. Okay, all right, so we're going to start off with what's your favourite album. Wait, that's impossible.

Janek: 41:58

I know it's impossible, but yeah, I mean I'm going to probably have to say the deluxe edition of Kind of Blue. I mean it's got everything. It's got soul, it's got melody, it's got time. Yeah.

Geoff: 42:13

Yeah, impossible question to answer next favorite musician, alive or otherwise, that you would like to play with.

Janek: 42:20

Wow, that's really tough um

Janek: 42:23

impossible.

Janek: 42:24

I would say like maybe 60s Tony Williams playing with Tony Williams in the 60s would have been the ultimate lesson in time. On. Milestone albums. I think he's the greatest.

Janek: 42:39

Him or.

Janek: 42:39

Philly Joe, I don't know. It immediately goes to like things that have impacted me the most are the things of when I've been in the room and experienced it. Not watching a video, not listening to a record, it's being in the room and you get blown away and I just would love to have had the opportunity to be in the room in some of those moments. Jack DeJohnette playing with McCoy Tyner in the 60s like s*** people almost don't know that happened even.

Geoff: 43:03

I interviewed Stan Saltzman the other week. He went over to New York in 1966 and he went to see the Miles Quintet in the Village Gate or something.

Janek: 43:15

Yeah, can you imagine, yeah, I mean, these questions are impossible because the list, you open up a Pandora's Box of wanting to be there with Wayne, like 63, Herbie, you know like, or Coltrane.

Geoff: 43:28

Or Coltrane or Red.

Janek: 43:31

Garland, or Wynton Kelly or one of those guys, or just you know, going to a Paul Chambers concert as an audience member, never mind playing with them.

Geoff: 43:39

I can't imagine. You know what I mean. Amazing. What would you say today was the highlight of your career?

Janek: 43:47

Jeez Wow, how to unpack 30 years of gigs and pick one.

Geoff: 43:51

Yeah, it's hard.

Janek: 43:52

Impossible. These questions need emailing six months.

Geoff: 43:56

No, this is the beauty of it. I know it's hard, it's hard.

Geoff: 44:01

Career highlight. My God, okay. It's the greatest experience I've ever had in a recording studio and it was an incredible honour that it was with my own band and it was with Tom Cawley and Nicholas Vicarro and my engineer, Juan Pablo Caro, in this, uh, in this recording studio in an 11th century castle in Spain, and it was the greatest studio experience and quite possibly the best musical experience I've ever had and it's out there as a record. It's called One Way Out.

Geoff: 44:34

Ou. It's a great album as well. Oh, thanks.

Janek: 44:37

We just went in with no expectations and everyone just did very well and it just worked. Tom's great, isn't he? It's ridiculous.

Geoff: 44:47

What was the last concert you attended?

Janek: 44:51

Brad Mehldau Trio three weeks ago with Christian McBride and Marcus Gilmore.

Geoff: 44:58

Yeah, bet that was good.

Janek: 45:00

Yeah, not bad yeah, where was that? One of the theatres in downtown Los Angeles, big place, couple of thousand people amazing yeah, it was the first night of the tour.

Janek: 45:11

It was all new music. It was interesting like I'm the biggest Brad fan and, of course, Christian and and one of my favorite ever and Marcus Gilmore was just exceptional, um, but it was very interesting from the standpoint of they were feeling each other out very much first night of the tour in a room that wasn't suited to jazz. So it was very interesting, dynamic and I kind of wish I'd been able to go and see them, like today, like three weeks into it, and see how that developed.

Geoff: 45:38

Do you ever get? nervous on stage?

Janek: 45:40

Never I, and I think about it often because I get the question a lot on clinics and masterclasses. Hey, you ever get nervous. What do you do to overcome this? Then you know, I'm like I'm the worst person to ask because I don't, and I often question why I don't. Yeah, um, you get sort of deep and philosophical about it, but I think I've, like we talked about earlier on, I've never lost sight of where it all started and how into it I was, like from the first day. So it's only gotten better from there.

Geoff: 46:07

Yeah, you know, do you think that's got a lot to do with confidence. You're not being afraid of mistakes.

Janek: 46:13

For sure, and that's also something I think a lot of people don't understand can be learned. Some people look at me and they're like oh, he's just naturally confident.

Janek: 46:21

They're like right, I thought it's just one of those naturally confident people.

Janek: 46:25

I think you can learn that if you're open to the mistakes everywhere, you know, if you are all about the process and not about the goal, then you're in great shape and that's how I've always been. The other similar question to that is like do you, when you know there's like a cat in the audience, when there's somebody heavyweight, like?

Geoff: 46:43

that was my next question. Oh, it is. Please ask the question. No, go on, go on. That's it yeah.

Janek: 46:57

When somebody is heavyweight in the audience and uh, and the question has two parts, maybe it's like when you know they're there and then you have to go on stage. Or when you find out afterwards you're like, oh, you know, like god, I wish I hadn't played that. Uh, I get way more of that feeling.

Geoff: 47:06

You know someone's there.

Geoff: 47:07

So that's the question does that affect your playing?

Janek: 47:10

Not at all, actually, I think maybe only in a positive way, especially especially if it's something like I'll give you an instance when, after that tour of the album we just talked about with Nico and Tom, we went on tour in Europe, did a little tour and we played in Monaco and sitting not 20 feet from the stage is big boy Johnny Mac. You know, John McLaughlin lives in Monaco. My drummer was playing in his band three months beforehand. Johnny Mac comes out with his wife and his kid for dinner. Boom, that's Mr Maha F*** Vishnu right there eating scallops while I'm trying to play my stupid little jazz tunes.

Janek: 47:43

And no, it was like I just. It made me think about all the things I loved about him. It made me have all of these thoughts that I would never know. I would never normally have thought about this random John McLaughlin album that I listened to when I was a kid, you know. Yeah, but it made me think about vividly, Mike Chadwick on Jazz FM playing, yeah, John McLaughlin Free Spirits trio live at Tokyo playing the album playing Little Miss Valley and me just about to go to sleep and turn the radio off, then I hear that like oh, and this is a history lesson for you all. Got, jumped out of my bed, ran to the radio, got a pen, piece of paper and prayed that Mike would say what the hell it was.

Janek: 48:22

Yeah, I remember that, and that was John McLaughlin from The Spirits. I'm in Tokyo and then like I don't k enough money for that CD.

Janek: 48:30

I'm 15 years old, so save up for a couple of weeks and then go to the record, so like between hearing it for the first time and hearing it for the second time, two or three weeks expired yeah, little things like that when somebody big is in the room.

Janek: 48:42

I did a tour for two months in Europe opening for Herbie, so every night I'd look over there and Herbie with that big grin standing on the side of the stage. I'm like, oh f***. You know it really had the effect of oh man, yeah, Herbie playing on Fee-Fi-Fo-Fum. Like, just put me in a space,

Geoff: 49:01

What's your favourite sandwich?

Janek: 49:03

Oh, I don't eat sandwiches, man

Janek: 49:04

? I really don't. I can't remember the last time I had a f***ing sandwich.

Geoff: 49:09

It's been years. What about favourite movie?

Janek: 49:13

Oh, um, it depends, like years. What about favourite movie? It depends. Right now it's a toss-up between two pretty random ones. One is The Last Waltz, which is the story of the band you know that the band that backed Bob Dylan.

Geoff: 49:27

Oh yeah.

Janek: 49:30

And the dumbest movie ever The Pope Must Die with Robbie Coltrane. It's a dumb movie from the early 90s. I don't know why that has stuck in my head for years.

Geoff: 49:38

I've got to tell you a funny story. Actually, I was watching this movie, Conclave, the other night.

Janek: 49:43

I watched it on the plane coming over here for the second time, love it.

Geoff: 49:46

I fell asleep in the middle of Conclave. I woke up in the middle of Angels and Demons, which was Tom Hanks trying to get rid of the Illuminati in Rome.

Janek: 49:57

Yeah, and for about half an hour I thought it was the same movie.

Janek: 50:02

I thought it was the same film, I literally did Conclave with antimatter yeah.

Geoff: 50:08

And for half an hour it made sense.

Janek: 50:12

Well, that's bad, that it made sense. Yeah, I know, I thought what's happened to Stanley Tucci? And Ralph. uh, Ralph finds yeah.

Geoff: 50:19

Yeah, I thought it was a great man and all of a sudden, Tom Hanks shows up. Yeah, what's he doing here? What's he doing? That's a good one, man. Do you have a favorite venue that you like to play in?

Janek: 50:30

Yeah, I mean it's not there anymore, like a lot of great venues. Um, if we're talking about jazz and if we're talking about something that I have a massive emotional connection to, it would have to be the 55 Bar in New York because I played. it has to be over 1,000 gigs there.

Janek: 50:48

I know I played 300 with Mike Stern alone in that place and I had a residency there with my own band for years. I made my second album live there. But also I'm here in London at Ronnie's, which is crazy. Did you know I used to work at Ronnie's? No, not a lot of people know this. Sold yeah we'll get there.

Janek: 51:08

Plug cables in and set the band up on it. Remember it used to be Monday soundcheck. Monday through Saturday, breakdown Saturday night. So I'd come in Monday daytime, do the soundcheck with everyone, right, set it all up. I get to stay. They pay me a little bit 15 quid or so, whatever. It was a little bit of money. But we're talking about 1994, 95. I'd be up here in the West End every night. I'd get Bob Berg every night, every set, and so Ronnie's holds up very. I'm here in London playing at Ronnie Scott's with Steve Smith, which is no small deal, because Steve is a big part of why I moved to America there were two albums.

Janek: 51:46

There was the Brecker Brothers live in Barcelona and Steps Ahead 1986 live in Tokyo, and I've now played with everyone on both of those records and Steve is a massive part of that Tokyo record, so yeah, it's big connections, so I guess Ronnie's here and the 55 bar there fantastic what about a favorite country or a city? Oh, that's a toss-up between Spain and Japan, but for very different reasons. You know, I probably live in Spain and but spend a lot of time in Japan.

Janek: 52:13

Culturally speaking, it's a little bit you've been to Japan many times, you know I probably live in Spain but spend a lot of time in Japan culturally speaking. You've been to Japan many times. You know how crazy Tokyo is. I like the mountains outside of Barcelona, a little bit more low key

Geoff: 52:24

You're getting old.

Geoff: 52:25

Now you're a father and you've matured a lot. You want different things out of life.

Janek: 52:29

A little, let's go with a little.

Janek: 52:30

I've matured a little right.

Geoff: 52:33

So one last question, what's your favorite chord?

Janek: 52:36

Oh, right now it's, it's sort of anything major seven to play it on the line.

Geoff: 52:41

Yeah, yeah, it depends it's um.

Janek: 52:44

I've been working a lot on on um neo-riemannian triadic transformation theory. Come again neo-rymanian, Come again Neo-Riemannian Triadic Transformation Theory. Okay, it's a big, long ugly title to basically say how you move from a major triad to a minor triad using sometimes moving two voices, but mainly moving one C major and move one voice to go to C minor Move one voice.

Geoff: 53:13

You mean one note, one note, sorry. Yeah.

Janek: 53:15

one voice of the chord, one voice of the triad Move one from C minor one voice to go to A flat major Move one voice. A flat minor yeah. Move another voice.

Janek: 53:27

We're already in E major and we started in C so we've moved a major third, not a common interval, to move in with only a very few motions, single-note motions Right E major to E minor and one note to go back to C, and of course there are sliding ones where you move two notes. You go from C to F minor. It's more common to the ear to go four minor to one, but yeah, so a lot of of motion like Debussy is using this, like a lot of classical, some romantic era composer using that. So this is just good voice leading, isn't it? Absolutely it's good voice leading and bleeds into counterpoint. I'm writing a lot for choral music right now. I'm writing a lot for voices I'm working on an album for the Bulgarian.

Janek: 54:12

Like women's voices, like choir so yeah, that's sort of on my mind. So one chord, yeah, probably major seven, sharp nine. Just don't weigh into that sound right now. But in the broader sense that's sort of a direction I'm going in, just trying to study more than I ever have. And try and relate that to the bass and try and relate that not just to chords but to linear ideas as well they.

Janek: 54:33

Wayne Shorter is basically entire career. He never played a line. He always played triads. You end up playing quite angular stuff but it's all basically triads underneath and shifting from major to minor and how you superimpose them on regular standard harmony, jazz standard harmony. Pretty fascinating stuff, totally nerdy. It's another seven lifetimes with the work but it keeps me occupied lovely on the evenings, lovely.

Geoff: 54:58

Thanks so much for your time. It's been great, My pleasure. Hope the gig goes well tomorrow. Yeah, and I hope I make my flight the next morning. All right, cool man.

Geoff: 55:07

Thanks, you got it, Love you.

Announcement: 55:09

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