Geoff: 0:01

Hello again, podcats Geoff Gascoyne here, hope you're well. Today I'm off to Chesham to talk to a fantastic Brazilian guitar player, composer, bandleader, arranger, Luiz Morais, someone I met in a classical guitar shop a few years ago and we hit it off and stayed in touch and we've played a few gigs together and, uh, I've been an admirer of his work for quite some time. So I'm going to talk all about the guitar, a bit about Brazil. Here we go.

Announcement: 0:53

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Geoff: 1:03

Luiz. Hello sir, thanks for picking me up. Don't get rained on. It's raining in Chesham. How are you, my friend? Good, good, good. Thank you so much for coming all the way in. Oh, it's a long way, isn't it? What a mish. Are we on? We're on, yes, yeah, we're podcasting. We're live. How are you today?

Luiz: 1:23

Good, great to have you here.

Geoff: 1:25

Thanks for inviting me around. Can we start talking about your background, how you got started in improvised music and what your story is playing the guitar, so beautifully?

Luiz: 1:33

My first thing with music was songs, like the big tradition of singer-songwriters in Brazil, right, Caetano Veloso, Gilberto Gil, Luiz Gonzaga, all these people. So my parents, they are not musicians, but they gave me that the whole what we call MPB, Brazilian Popular Music, like these people, especially back in the days, 80s, 70s, 60s, 70s, you know, throughout the last century it was the way that Brazilian music was evolving was based on that, right. So we had this gorgeous time where quality was priority, you know. So you get these big TV shows, big festivals, and you know, radio especially. You know. Great music would be, you know, appreciated, would be, you know, appreciated for, you know, for the great public, rather than what happens today. Great public, like you know, have what we call pop stuff. So, but back in the day, pop was used to be what we call popular, like, as in, you know, music from the people, but with high level, level, very good quality. So these people Veloso, Gilberto Gil, Milton Nascimento, Chico Buarque, Luiz Gonzaga, all of them. This is my background.

Geoff: 2:57

I saw an interview once and I can't remember who it was with, but they were talking about the sophistication of Brazilian music. The example they gave was the Brazilian national anthem. Oh yeah, it's not like God Save the Queen, is it Nah?

Luiz: 3:11

It's complicated. It has all this jazz, Chromatics and things, right yeah.

Geoff: 3:15

It's beautiful actually. Is it beautiful, is it?

Luiz: 3:18

Yeah, proper composition and lyrics like endless lyrics, Right, wow.

Geoff: 3:23

Growing up with the Jobim legacy, if that is a thing.

Luiz: 3:26

Yeah, yeah, I mentioned all of those, but I didn't mention Jobim. Yeah, Of course, Jobim was sort of master for some of those you know. Came before, yeah, and actually before Jobim, we had people like Ary Barroso, which is the composer of most famous tune is Brasil, Brasil, Brasileiro, Brasileiro but wonderful composers, you know, before the Bossa Nova era. You know, and Choro as well, right, which is something that I didn't have as a I didn't start with as a musician, but then I became very much into Choro, Samba,

Geoff: 4:06

Can you explain what Choro is to people who don't know?

Luiz: 4:09

Yes, yes, so Choro is, how do I say, the very first urban music in Brazil. It's the result of the mix of the, the European influence, like the dances, the saloon music, that, all that finesse of the European music, all the harmonic language coming from there, with the rhythmic language of the African heritage, you know so we obviously have the sad chapter.

Luiz: 4:41

So we obviously have the sad chapter of Brazilian history where African people were taken there and, despite all the history that everyone knows about, we had this result of the mix of music, so Choro came as a result of that.

Geoff: 5:03

How does Choro differ from Bossa Nova?

Luiz: 5:06

N More ny because, as I said, coming from classical music it's very na. It's a composition that obeys a ronde, a three-part composition A, a, b, b, a, c, c. Rondo, you know three-part composition, you know a, a, b, b, a, c, c, that form, traditionally in its instrumental music, mostly very virtuosic. And and also you have harmonically, you have like a triadic language that goes, moves a lot, but it's it's not about the texture, is more about movement of the harmony. Can you play an example? Let me find something here, something like this so that's.

Luiz: 6:19

Choro. Right, that's Choro. Okay, very much yeah. And the guitar. What I played here is one of the classics, as you know. You know of the guitar repertoire, so it's very connected to that as well. But when I started out with the guitar, it wasn't Choro, it was accompanying songs.

Geoff: 6:38

In what sort of style would you be playing when you started out?

Luiz: 6:45

Rhythm from the northeast of Brazil .

Geoff: 6:46

B I mean, you're not strumming Lennon and McCartney tunes, are you? No?

Luiz: 6:54

That kind of thing.

Geoff: 6:56

I know. So traditional Brazilian songs is what about about? about.

Luiz: 7:01

Yeah, yeah.

Geoff: 7:03

Was there an influence of European music when you were growing up? Not really.

Luiz: 7:08

For me, the first non-Brazilian composer that I got into was actually Bob Marley. Wow yeah, I'm just not a rock person at all you know.

Geoff: 7:20

So what age would you have been when you were starting to play guitar? Twelve, Twelve? And did you have formal lessons? Or was it all by ear when you started?

Luiz: 7:29

No, it was like getting the little books from the, you know, just finding the position strumming along. Yeah, yeah, yeah all that. And then later on my dad had a teacher and then I had some lessons with this teacher. I had a little bit of introduction in early teens and then I had a massive gap and then when I was 17 to 18 I got serious about it, into soloing, you know learning piece, so that that was a bit of classical in there. A little bit further down the line I came across jazz and that was really striking. So Choro jazz, you know instrumental music, was kind of same time when I was that kind of age, 18, 19.

Geoff: 8:14

What was the first jazz that really turned you on.

Luiz: 8:18

That's going to be a very cliche, but that was the Kind of Blue. Yeah, of course, Kind of Blue was brutal. Yeah, Miles was that mysterious figure. I was like wow, wow man. You know, once my, my aunt gave me Bags' Groove album with the green cover, you know, with Milt, , , Milt Jackson, brutal man.

Luiz: 8:45

That the sound of the vibes, and I mean before that through Jobim

Geoff: 8:51

So you already had an ear for sophisticated harmony, because obviously Jobim is very sophisticated.

Luiz: 8:57

Yeah, that's, that is actually what caught me, you know, like I was interested on the guitar but then soloing the guitar, but then when I started accompanying Edu Lobo, Jobim, Chico Buarque, you know, just get little things, you know, Edu Lobo like he would do something like that, then result this is jazz, right, you know, I was like wow, but why not this? Like whoa, so gorgeous?

Luiz: 9:29

Yeah, so that thing was the harmony side of things

Geoff: 9:33

, I guess it will always lead to jazz, won't it? Because that harmony is so sophisticated, isn't it? Yeah, was there any classical music influence as well?

Luiz: 9:42

Not very much. This is something that I've been more interested in more recently, actually. Right. Obviously, when I went to university, one gets exposed. I didn't go for a jazz course. There isn't such a thing. You know, when I first entered university it was like bachelor, like a general thing In music. In music, yeah, you know, one would come across Bach, and you know, as I said, I started late. You know, Like my peers they had. You know, a lot of people start as a child, you know, have lots of piano lessons, blah, blah, blah. I remember I only started reading music in order to enter university. I didn't know how to read or write music at all, so that was quite a late start. So for me to hear all those huge composers, I didn't really understand very much.

Geoff: 10:34

So you started to improvise. Did you ever transcribe any solos or learn other people's solos?

Luiz: 10:39

Yes, but that was much later, much later. That was much later. When I was 33, I moved to Rio de Janeiro. So that was a big game changer. So where did you grow up? Fortaleza? Fortaleza is northeast of Brazil. That's the fifth biggest city in Brazil, but it was obviously not. You know, Rio de Janeiro is the very center. You know Villa Lobos is from Rio de Janeiro, Pixinguinha is from Rio de Janeiro, Jobim is from Rio de Janeiro, you know.

Luiz: 11:08

So the very core of Brazilian music has been Rio, therefore, you know. So that's what I went, you know when I decided okay, I do want to be a musician, so I went there. So what do I find in region? Samba, Choro, Samba, Choro, Samba, Choro, Samba, Choro. A little bit of jazz, yes, but mostly within that kind of. So the transcribing started with Choro, actually, because the Choro it's a genre that you have your standards, that one has to learn A lot of harmony to be memorized. You don't go to a Choro, a haunted Choro, like the equivalent of a jam session. You don't go with a Choro, a hodage Choro, like the equivalent of a jam session. You don't go with your charts, really. No, you have to know what's happening.

Geoff: 11:55

It's kind of similar to jazz, isn't it? You know, you turn up on a jam session and you play. I Got Rhythm or Yardbird Suite or so on. Yeah, what are the most common Choro tunes to learn?

Luiz: 12:04

Noites Cariocas, like Brazilian Nights, you know. So I remember vividly, you know, having to transcribe stuff like the first change. So what would they do with this diminutve. Learning how to accompaniment? Yeah, you know that kind of language of accompaniment that is transcribing, right, okay, but then jazz, transcribing solos that was much later, right, you know, through the whole Bossa Nova thing, Jobim blah, blah, blah into jazz, Moacir Santos, you know. And then I was like, oh, improvisation, I have to understand this harmony to be able to improvise over this and blah, blah, blah, you know.

Geoff: 13:07

So you started working in Choro in Samba groups. Did you in in Rio?

Luiz: 13:11

Yeah, so that was the beginning of my professional life, was that right? Yeah okay in accompanying singers, which I love so when did you move to the uk? That was 2010.

Geoff: 13:24

What was that? What was the reason behind moving to the UK?

Luiz: 13:27

Man, now you brought me there. I had just finished university in Rio and I felt the need for expansion. I felt that I had to leave Brazil. I had to get to know other things, speak other languages. That was a sort of natural impulse for me. Okay, where am I going? English is the most useful language. I had this thing. I didn't want to go to the States. So, coming from Europe, you know, I knew some people that had been in London and stuff I'd lived in London. So I was like, yeah, let me try that.

Geoff: 14:07

Did you consider going to Portugal or Spain?

Luiz: 14:09

No, because from.

Luiz: 14:10

Brazil to Portugal.

Geoff: 14:12

You speak the same countries,

Luiz: 14:13

no, Portugal no

Luiz: 14:15

.

Luiz: 14:16

Actually I ended up going to Spain for the. You know they have the Berkeley campus there. A few years later, from England, I went to Spain to do the course there. So there is when I had, you know, more of the transcribing thing of like jazz itself, through this man called Perico.

Geoff: 14:35

Perico Sambiat.

Luiz: 14:37

Yeah.

Geoff: 14:37

I worked with him. Yeah, I worked with him in Guy Barker's International Group for many years back in the 90s. Yeah, where did he live? Valencia, yeah.

Luiz: 14:47

So I lived for one year there and you studied with him, did you, yeah? So there was this improvisation. Class One had to transcribe, but yeah, that was much later. That was 2014 to 2015. When I went there, I had recorded my first album. I was composing already, I was into jazz already, but not very much as an improviser. So to speak.

Geoff: 15:13

So let's talk about composing. Did you always compose? Was it natural for you to do that?

Luiz: 15:17

Soon, after I started learning harmony and getting into the words of Edu Lobo, moacir Santos, these people I just felt that I should, and Choro as well. I should do my own compositions.

Geoff: 15:30

And now you run your own Choro group right.

Luiz: 15:32

Yeah.

Geoff: 15:33

How long has that been going?

Luiz: 15:34

Alvarada, we've been together for 80 years actually It's not my group. Butvarada, we've been together for 80 years. Actually it's not my group, but you know we started it together. Right, this is some of my compositions there, and yeah.

Geoff: 15:49

So I made some apps, yes, and I believe you've been using one of them, right. Yes, I asked you to pick a tune to play on. What did you choose?

Luiz: 16:00

We spoke so much about my beginnings, yeah, so I'm gonna pick 'Wave'. Right. This is one of the tunes that was the very first that I you know, Jo be in. This is harmony. This is now. I'm really into this thing, so I would like to revive that. Yeah.

Geoff: 16:19

Fantastic.

Geoff: 16:59

Right, thank you, do, do, thank you, yeah, yeah, fabulous yeah.

Geoff: 18:03

I'll tell you what I'd love to hear, is if I could put just the bass and the drums on and just get you to comp through it. I love guitar, I love the sound of guitar, and then maybe we can talk about how to accompany in Bossa Nova.

Geoff: 19:21

One chorus accompany in Bossa Nova. Thank you, yeah.

Geoff: 19:57

I'd love to talk about the comping. Yeah, let's do it. And the rhythmic stuff that you were doing yeah Right, and the chords and stuff, so much great stuff n there Was Was influences that you took from your comping ideas and your styles?

Luiz: 20:10

It's funny because when you play Bossa Nova. Bossa Nova is a style of Samba, right, you know, you have that old school style that was consolidated by joan Gilbert. Right? When you play like super simple, but then you have someone like Baden Powell that the semi quavers are more like, it's like busier, yeah. So I kind of try and mix those things.

Geoff: 20:40

It's fully formed what you're playing there. You don't really need to have anything else. But when you're playing with a bass player, do you try and play without the root notes, because I noticed you were still playing a lot of root notes. I mean, obviously this question is coming from a bass player.

Luiz: 20:56

Well, we have the freedom to sort of, you know, not be there, but also there is no clash, you know. So sometimes I went as we just did.

Geoff: 21:16

Without the bass notes ? ight ight yeah sometimes this sounds so good with the bass notes, though, doesn't it?

Luiz: 21:22

Yeah, I have a 7th string. I could go pretty like that kind of thing.

Geoff: 21:38

Can we just mention that for a second, the 7th string. Is that a traditional thing? Why did you go for a 7th string guitar?

Luiz: 21:44

Because of Choro, Choro Samba and Sambaso so,, so this is becoming very popular. You go to the high street shop, you know, in Rio de Janeiro you'll get one 7th string, you know. Right Back to your question Choro in the Shoro Ensemble traditionally there is no bass, so one has to sort of cover that part.

Geoff: 22:02

Well, that would be why. Yeah, yeah, yeah, the resonance on that low string is just gorgeous, absolutely gorgeous. Yeah, oh, we're going to talk a bit more about composing. Right, you've had some influences on your composing style, do you? Do you compose a lot?

Luiz: 22:20

I wouldn't wouldn't say a lot, a lot. But yeah, I did one first album with 10 compositions originals I thought they had to be all originals and 'Nascente', called Nascente, which means being born. And then, years later, I did this more recent 'In called Weave' the Weave, also with another 10 compositions. And I also write, for you know I did this big band project recently you all part . Amazing and yeah, so I keep going, I try to also. varada also also my show group also.

Luiz: 23:01

There's quite a few of my compositions, so I try and keep writing

Geoff: 23:05

There's one composition I'd like to ask you about, which I'm a huge fan of. I love your writing, by the way, but um, there was one with the Indian singer yeah uh, this tune, can you tell me a bit?

Luiz: 23:17

about this tune. This is a bit of a hit. Yeah, this is your hit right, this is true.

Geoff: 23:21

Just remind us of the background to this and the well this. What's the title of this tune?

Luiz: 23:27

it's called 'Waltz for Us Two', 'Waltz for Us Two'. Yeah, this is a tune that I wrote, actually for the occasion of my own wedding, where I wrote for, for, for Florence, my wife, to come down the aisle, so very, very romantic. Um, yeah, it's a, you know waltz, and I did the rain for the album with a string arrangement. It's absolutely gorgeous. I'm really, I was really happy about recording in Rio with my teacher. Vito gave me all the support, you know.

Luiz: 23:58

You know, this writing music is just such a how do I say, a journey, isn't it? So it's not only the composing, it's the arranging as well, right, which is composing the end, right? But yeah, that tune. It seems that because of the exotic element of the Indian singer , when I went to Berkeley I I shared the flat with another composer from Chennai, someone called Satish, and his wife is a you know Indian classical um singer, with that, that style, that amazing singing, you, it just occurred to me that that melody would be sort of evocative and beautiful with the Indian singing. So that's what we did.

Geoff: 24:47

Everyone should listen to that tune, it's absolutely gorgeous.

Luiz: 24:49

Waltz for us Two, yeah.

Geoff: 24:51

Yeah, congratulations.

Geoff: 24:54

Some quick five questions if that's okay, yeah, let's do it, let's do it.

Geoff: 24:57

Right, do you have a favourite album?

Luiz: 25:00

There is one called Coisas. Coisas, meaning things, by Moacir Santos, which is perhaps my great influence in my composing, as you asked, Moacir Moacir, m-o-a-c-i-r, Moacir Santos Santos yeah. So this is one composer to pay attention to. I'm gonna look this up. Wynton Marsalis described him as a Brazilian Duke Ellington. So just for a reference of the jazz people.

Geoff: 25:41

Wow, that's fantastic.

Geoff: 25:42

And what is it about him that particularly you like.

Luiz: 25:47

You know what? For me, melody is the thing you know. You can play all sorts of fancy stuff on top. I mean, I love my harmony, my reharmonizations and all sorts of techniques and textures and this and that and counterpoints and so on, but the melody is, as my teacher Vito says, red carpet for the melody, red carpet for the melody. So Moacir is a great melodist.

Geoff: 26:19

Fabulous Right. So the next question kind of leads on from that one. Is there a favourite musician, alive or dead, that you would like to play with?

Luiz: 26:27

Wow, that's a tricky one To play with. Oh my God, from the jazz world, someone like Bill Evans is pretty amazing, right from from the writing, the composing, the arranging side. Klaus Orgerman, wow, that person not not necessarily play with, but to hear, to see, to have any any of you know contact with that kind of music? For me it just seems so you know.

Geoff: 27:03

Excellent. Is there a highlight of your career or a best gig moment in your career so far?

Luiz: 27:08

You know what? This recent moment with the big band was pretty amazing. Really, it was Indeed, it was. I mean. There were other moments that you know.

Geoff: 27:18

So we played at the Pizza Express with your big band a few weeks ago now and you worked really hard and took a long time on that music. It was all your music, right? Yeah?

Luiz: 27:27

so yeah, so that thing coming coming alive was pretty amazing. You know people were on board and such great players. You know there was good moments there. You know people were on board and such great players.

Geoff: 27:42

You know there was good moments there. Definitely yeah, is this something you're?

Luiz: 27:45

going to do more of Well, hopefully.

Geoff: 27:48

Make an album Indeed, yeah.

Luiz: 27:51

What was the last concert you attended? It was Maria Schneider at the Barbican. So that was, you see, within this writing thing, the big band thing. It's also someone really, really inspiring for me Through the grants, because this thing was made possible by this grant from the Ascansa and so on. So I had the chance to go and see two concerts recently, back to back, like a few weeks apart the Lincoln Jazz Orchestra with Marsalis and son and Maria Schneider. So that was just before my own gig. It was like really, oh my god, what am I doing?

Geoff: 28:34

but yeah, that was great that. It's inspiring, though, isn't it Seeing that high level like that?

Luiz: 28:39

Man, that was fantastic. I mean Marsalis, the energy of these p eople Seeing- that that There was one thing that really impressed me was that they brought the junior bands and the junior band played at the hall, the foyer, and the main band were there cheering supporting, and that was amazing. Wow, wow.

Geoff: 29:03

What would you say was your musical weakness?

Luiz: 29:05

Musical weakness, oh, my God. I think mainly the melodic ear, Even though I consider myself a melodist. you know, as we spoke about melody composing, you know I'm big on melody, but I didn't get very much training.

Luiz: 29:24

That's not a disclaimer, but that's the way it is, you know.

Geoff: 29:28

Yeah, but you've written some beautiful melodies. Some of your music is gorgeous, so you have that in you. You have all the tradition of beautiful Brazilian music in you. Yeah indeed, that's a plus, that's not a weakness. Do you ever get nervous on stage. Yes, yes, When you're standing in front of a big band?

Luiz: 29:47

Perhaps, perhaps, but you know what, that day, that day that's what I'm saying you know that was a good day because after we had the rehearsal and everyone was, you know, so supportive, it was fine. But yeah, I've had pretty, pretty nerve-wracking moments. Actually, there was one day when we played this gig at the the Vortex, actually here in England, and it was like, you know, the element of being a foreigner and you know, and not knowing the people, was recently in England. Oh my god, that was tricky.

Geoff: 30:23

What's your favourite sandwich?

Luiz: 30:29

I think ham and cheese toasties pretty, pretty high up in there. What's your favourite sandwich? I think ham and cheese toastie is pretty high up in the traditional, simple one.

Geoff: 30:37

Okay, excellent. What about a favourite movie?

Luiz: 30:39

Favourite movie? Well, there was a movie that I watched a long time ago. Very sad, but it's actually a wonderful piece of art, which is the, Schindler's List. Right, I'm just saying, perhaps it's not necessarily my favourite, you know, yeah, but it's… Made an impression. That's kind of movie like really a piece of art, isn't it? Sure is, yeah, I like my Almodovar as well. Sometimes I like also some you know, fun stuff as well.

Geoff: 31:11

Did you grow up watching mostly English language films, or did you? Is there a Brazilian scene?

Luiz: 31:18

Well, yeah, yeah, America was pretty strong, isn't it? With the cinema.

Geoff: 31:22

Is there a favourite venue that you've played in? That you like to play in?

Luiz: 31:27

Favourite venue?

Geoff: 31:29

Well, there was one gig that we played that I really enjoyed here in England was the few years back with Alvarado. We did the Elgar Room. That was. That was great. There was I don't know about 250 people there and it was launching the album. You know the size of the stage, the quality of the sound and and the whole. Obviously . It's just yeah, like very glamorous, very grand and so on. So that was, but you don't play frequent that frequently there. That was a one-off actually so far. But to be honest, in England I think the Pizza I do like the Pizza yeah, it's great.

Geoff: 32:13

Do you have a favourite country or a favourite city that you like to visit?

Luiz: 32:17

or be in. I'm just gonna take Brazil out of that one because that's that's biased, that's, that's, that's very obvious. But a place that I that I really, really, really enjoyed was Valencia, Spain, right, that place I even wrote that tune called Mi Pueblo. Places in the south of Spain, Granada was wonderful.

Geoff: 32:42

Tradition of classical guitar music as well. Obviously, indeed, yeah, all right. So one last question just to finish off what's your favourite chord, my favourite, my favourite chord? You can have a few and you can play.

Luiz: 32:54

You can play some of them for me if you want. the flat 2 on a minor key when it, when you go like you go, flat 2 Lydian. I do love that. Okay, my, my Northeast, sort of 7th with a sharp 11th. Yeah, I like that. Ah, when you do a 2-5 like.

Geoff: 33:36

That's a nice voicing. Just tell us what those notes are.

Luiz: 33:39

D, A-flat, C, E-natural G.

Geoff: 33:45

So it's a diminished finish with a natural 9, yeah, G. So diminished with a natural nine, yeah.

Luiz: 33:57

That kind of very lush, yeah, yeah, yeah, I like that kind of thing. Beautiful man.

Geoff: 34:05

Well, I think that'll do it, we're done.

Luiz: 34:07

Thank you for being my guest you're welcome. Thank you for being here.

Geoff: 34:10

I'd love to, I'd listen to you play guitar all day, so thanks and let's hope we work together very soon yes, indeed, more big band. I'm coming to see your Choro gig for sure. Yes, I'm looking forward to that.

Luiz: 34:25

Alright, great, bye, bye. Thank you for yes, I'm looking forward to that, alright great, bye, bye.

Announcement: 34:30

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