Geoff: 0:01

Hello podcats Geoff Gascoyne here, hope you're well. Today I'm in the car and I'm driving to Earl's Court. I'm actually playing a gig at the Troubadour, which is a little gig that my next guest runs every Sunday night. His name is Sebastiaan de Krom and he is a fantastic drummer and educator. He's one of my oldest friends. I've known and played with him for about 25 years now. We've played together on at least a few hundred recordings. We were in Jamie Cullum's band together for eight years, toured the world, and since then I've seen him probably every week. He's the drummer I've played with the most and we're playing tonight at the Troubadour and I'm grabbing him before that, and we're going to talk a little bit about him and about improvising and anything that comes up. Here we go.

Announcement: 1:09

The Quartet Jazz Standards Podcast is brought to you by the Quartet app for iOS, taking your jazz play along to another level.

Geoff: 1:17

Sebastiaan de Krom hello.

Sebastiaan: 1:18

Hello Geoff, how are you?

Geoff: 1:19

All right, yeah, haven't seen you for a while.

Sebastiaan: 1:21

Yeah, it's a long, long time, man A few days, isn't it, I guess so. So we're playing tonight, aren't we? Yeah, it's a long, long time, man A few days, isn't it, I guess so?

Geoff: 1:26

So we're playing tonight, aren't we at the Troubadour?

Sebastiaan: 1:28

We are yes.

Geoff: 1:29

Tell us all about the Troubadour. How long has it been going?

Sebastiaan: 1:32

Well, the Troubadour itself has been going for quite a long time. They started presenting music since 1953. But the Jazz Night started on Mother's Day, March 2017. So, yeah, it's about eight years going now, including the COVID years, but it's going all right. It's going good every Sunday night.

Geoff: 1:52

And we play without a chordal instrument. We just play saxophone, bass and drums.

Sebastiaan: 1:56

Yeah, yeah, well, first of all, we don't really have a piano here. That's the problem. But I mean, sometimes I have guitarists in as well, but it's mostly like chordless and I find it a real challenge and I hope that the other musicians find it a nice challenge.

Geoff: 2:08

I love it. Actually, I love playing with just the bass drums. Yeah, me too.

Sebastiaan: 2:12

Is that Sonny Rollins? Absolutely, he's the king, and that's sort of what I modeled my Sunday nights at least Great.

Geoff: 2:24

So I know your dad is a drummer, isn't he? Is that where you got your start? How did you start?

Sebastiaan: 2:27

Well, I was just banging on pots and pans and always listening to jazz music. So when I was about two years old he started me off on a toy drum kit. But then I think when I was about two or three or four he came up with the real drum kit and he started me off really with just only the snare. If I was making progress then he would add the hi-hat, then the right cymbal you have to earn a different part of it. I had to earn it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Geoff: 2:52

And you grew up in Holland, didn't?

Sebastiaan: 2:54

you, I was born in Dordrecht but I didn't grow up there. I was a baby when we left and I grew up in Ede, which is more or less the middle of Holland, more or less like some of the center point. I mean, culturally there was not really much going on. We had a theater cultural center, but there was very, very rarely somebody of interest would play there. I saw the Dutchman College Band there when I was four. That was my first proper concert, and two years later I saw Toots Tillemans there when I was six, when I was 17,. We moved to Brussels, to Belgium, and that was a whole revelation for me, because Brussels was really happening at that time. It was sort of like a mini well, what I think about a mini New York. A lot of clubs, there were a lot of great musicians living there, quite a few American musicians living there, and I attended my first jam sessions there.

Geoff: 3:43

So yeah, and then you went to study in America, didn't you?

Sebastiaan: 3:46

That's right, I was actually studying law in my first year in Louvain. I didn't know that. Yeah, yeah, I graduated from high school. I studied law for one year.

Geoff: 3:58

Why didn't I know that I've known you for?

Geoff: 3:59

25 years

Sebastiaan: 4:00

I've got dark secrets.

Geoff: 4:02

I'm going to come out today and tell you I'm years, I've got dark secrets.

Sebastiaan: 4:06

I'm still gonna come out today I tell you I'm gonna get in there, I'm gonna find out stuff I didn't know. Yeah, well, there's not much to know about. Uh. But yeah, I did. I did one year, uh, law studies and then I won a scholarship to go to Berkeley. That summer I went to a workshop in Perugia and I thought, like, well, that's it, it was a good scholarship. So, and uh, my, my mom and dad said, okay, you can go, but for two years, and then after two years we'll we'll see if it's worth it and uh. So I made sure that I uh, that I kept my grades up and uh, yeah, I had a great time and and

Geoff: 4:37

So you were studying at Berkeley.

Geoff: 4:39

For what you did?

Geoff: 4:40

a degree there.

Sebastiaan: 4:41

I two degrees. It was a five-year study. I did a dual degree, again maybe you don't know this in music production and engineering, but don't ask me anything about it because I forgot it all. But I also studied music, business and management and then on the side I was playing all the time and I think my class was the first class to graduate with music, business and management

Geoff: 5:11

Because I know you worked for.

Geoff: 5:12

Ted Kurland yeah, the great American, yeah agent yeah,

Sebastiaan: 5:17

That's a part of the internship.

Sebastiaan: 5:19

So what you had to do at least three months or six months of internship, and my first internship was for Ted Kurland, but in the same building was also the manager of Pat Metheny, David Cholomson, and they sort of worked closely together. So I did an extra six months working for Pat Metheny. Actually, I worked for Pat Metheny.

Geoff: 5:39

Did you.

Sebastiaan: 5:40

Yeah, never met him but yeah. So, yeah, I did an internship there and a good time and then, yeah, that was.

Sebastiaan: 5:49

Ted Kurland is a big, big fish

Geoff: 5:50

right, but of course you're playing drums all the way through this, right? Yeah?

Sebastiaan: 5:54

yeah, yeah, I was playing all the time and basically people thought that I was a performance major.

Sebastiaan: 5:59

I was really playing so much and lots of concerts and projects and school bands Herb Pomeroy's big band, which was sort of seen as the the band to be in, yeah, and got to play a lot with Hal Crook and with George Garzone and, yeah, with some other great teachers there Rick Peckham, and yeah, I had an amazing time.

Sebastiaan: 6:21

And then after those five years I was ready to go to New York and uh, what happened then was like I wanted to do my master's, which was a two-year study, and I got accepted by New York University but also by Manhattan School of Music, which had John Riley, who's a famous drum teacher. But also I did audition for the Thelonious Monk Institute, which is now the Herbie Hancock Institute is the same organization, and they had a two year program, which was still in Boston, at New England Conservatory, and I tried that out, auditioned, went through the first round, went through the second round, got through a final, and then suddenly I got a phone call saying like, yeah, you're in. Do you want to do a two-year program at New England Conservatory under the umbrella of the Thelonious Monk Institute and I was like, yeah, that's incredible. Because everything was paid for and we got to play with a famous jazz musician every month for at least a week. So it was an incredible, incredible experience.

Geoff: 7:23

Amazing.

Geoff: 7:24

So that's seven years of study, right,

Sebastiaan: 7:26

Seven years of study, and then I also did a half year in between because I started in January 92. So I had to do like one semester, sort of like work study, and I did. actually I followed art history in Harvard and then I could like basically graduate with the people from my class at the same time and and then for the rest of that year I went to New York. So I went, I was living in Brooklyn, was subletting an apartment from a good friend of mine, Matt Penman, great bass player, and yeah, I got to play with some really great people there. And then suddenly out of the blue Guy Barker calls and he basically had, and that's when I met you actually.

Geoff: 8:09

Which was around 2000,. Wasn't it?

Sebastiaan: 8:10

It was 99. I was still living in New York when I first met you, and that was around the time of The Talent of Mr Ripley. That's what we did together, yeah, so, and then in January I made the decision like, well, my visa was running out, what do I do? Do I stay in the States or am I coming back to Europe? European passports were still very much popular. You know, I had a Dutch passport, but I could live and work in England, no problem.

Sebastiaan: 8:38

And so I came to London and I've just been settled ever since here.

Geoff: 8:40

And then, of course, we started working with Jamie Cullum together, didn't we? Yeah, it was 2001.

Sebastiaan: 8:44

You said something like that yeah, yeah, yeah, so it was through you, actually, that I, yeah, so we put together a trio and right, we were together for what's that? Eight years? Eight years, I think. Yeah, although the last year or so we didn't really play a lot because there was sort of like a sabbatical going on, yeah, but uh, no, amazing, amazing time man been around the world. So thank you very much for that. It was a really good time, really good time and learned a lot of being on the road.

Geoff: 9:13

It was amazing.

Geoff: 9:15

We had such a good time, didn't we Absolutely, were you always into jazz.

Sebastiaan: 9:18

I was always into jazz. Yeah, it's very freaky, I don't know why. As a kid I loved it. I was listening to other stuff as well. I grew up also with Top of the Pops and ABBA and the disco and all that kind of stuff and the rappers. But yeah, for some reason jazz always did it for me. We had a couple of Stan Getz records at home. We had some Jimmy Smith records, Gerry Mulligan, Dave Brubeck, and I was always playing along with those records.

Geoff: 9:46

So who are your drum influences then?

Sebastiaan: 9:47

Well, I would say, definitely Philly Joe Jones is my biggest drum influence, because a little bit later my dad bought me some Miles Davis records. My auntie had a few Miles Davis recordings. I loved the first quintet with Coltrane and Red Garland, Paul James and Philly Joe Jones and I was like, yeah, that's it. That's the way I think a jazz drummer should sound like.

Geoff: 10:05

Right, the sound, the swing. So what is it about Philly Joe Jones? Because I, to be honest, as a bass player, I can't distinguish between Philly Joe Jones, Billy Higgins, you know all the great swinging drummers. A lot of them sound quite similar through that sort of 50s period, don't they? So what is it that sets him apart?

Sebastiaan: 10:26

I think first of all it's the swing. His triplet feel is really, I think, right in the pocket. Some drummers have a skip beat that is slightly more straight going towards a straight eight Things like. Billy Higgins has a bit more of a straight eight-ish kind of feel, Max Rojas has it a little bit, Tony Williams and Roy Haynes have the opposite. They've got more of a 16th kind of vibe to it.

Sebastiaan: 10:49

And Philly Joe for me is right in the middle. Blakey is also like very triplety. So is Elvin, but Elvin has that really laid back kind of yeah vibe. And Philly Joe for me is really like he's, he's there and he's, he's especially him and Miles Davis. If you listen to, like when Miles is playing he's playing off the drummer and Philly Joe is just filling in the gaps and giving him some great ideas and there's really like a good question answer. His ears are always open, he's always interacting without actually sacrificing the groove right um, which you know, if you have drums who have a similar style, like Jimmy Cobb or Art Taylor, they have that as well, but they are a little bit less interactive. They're a little bit more of a side man. Philly Joe is really like pushing to be almost like a front man and okay, he's got some really hip hip stuff

Geoff: 11:36

But you don't play like that, though, do, do you?

Sebastiaan: 11:38

I don't know, you tell me I think you play as a supportive role when you play. Yeah, but that's the lesson I learned from people like Billy Higgins and Jimmy Cobb and Art Taylor. I still think that a drum should be, first and foremost, an accompanying instrument.

Geoff: 11:53

I still can't tell the difference though.

Sebastiaan: 11:54

No, no, no, that's fine, but I'm a drummer so I listen to those kind of things.

Geoff: 12:02

You have that with bass players. Probably you listen to a lot more jazz than I do.

Sebastiaan: 12:04

I would say yeah, probably.

Geoff: 12:06

You're a proper jazz nerd, aren't? You, I'm a jazz nerd, yeah, I mean you know dates, you know alternate takes, you know whole albums.

Sebastiaan: 12:14

It's quite sad isn't it.

Sebastiaan: 12:18

It is sad because it's info you cannot use at all.

Geoff: 12:21

It's not, it's a it's a thorough love of the music, is what it is. Yeah, you know, yeah I love it.

Sebastiaan: 12:27

I love it. It's really true. It's like it's not that I don't listen to other stuff of music, but I find it harder and harder to like listen to stuff that I'm not really into. And and I'm trying to, but I don't have an open mind maybe as you have. No, no, but that's fine and it's all good. You know, you know much more about pop and R&B and funk and all that kind of stuff which is great.

Sebastiaan: 12:51

I'm envious of that. But I guess somewhere in me is like man, I want a good swinging groove. It's like, yeah, that's it.

Geoff: 12:58

When you listen to a box set, for example, you'll start from track one and you'll go all the way through to the end. Yeah, yeah, I do that, you do.

Sebastiaan: 13:06

Well, the thing is this, though that happened in your car, I don't know if you remember. There's a famous Cannonball Adderley album that we both have something else, and my favorite track is the last track on the cd, which is a bonus track which was not in the original album, and I played that for you and I never heard it. You never heard it. You said, man, this is great. What is that? It's like?

Sebastiaan: 13:28

this is on your iPod. So I'm ashamed. No, that's okay. But yeah, I I have the patience, I guess, to listen from, and even if it's not really a good album, I listen to the beginning. If it's an artist that I like and respect, I will give it at least two, three, four listens and then I will sort of like read it from the beginning to the end, because there are some gems later on that you might miss.

Geoff: 13:52

Do you apply that kind of attitude to your teaching, for example, because I know you teach a lot, yeah.

Geoff: 14:02

So teaching, for example, because I know you teach a lot, yeah, so how, how do you go about your teaching? What's you do? You have a method.

Sebastiaan: 14:05

I really like teaching from the John Riley books. John has now four books out that are really good, very musical. They they talk about being a professional drummer. A little bit it's about accompanying, it's about soloing, it's about, you know, good exercises on that, about in order of whatever combination of coordinations and all that kind of stuff.

Sebastiaan: 14:23

So I really like to use that as like sort of the route I want to go with, because it really compartmentalizes everything that a student should know, right, okay, but on the other hand, you cannot learn music from a book. So I also want them to listen to recordings and maybe try to imitate a drummer or even transcribe stuff and maybe focus in on like small phrases of a solo. How do they stick this? There's different stickings possible on this and which one is the best for you, you know, and it's very interesting because everybody's different and so I think books are really useful and I use those writing books as sort of like the route to take, but if it needs to be diverted, that's fine, and also I don't want to fall into the trap of like you learn music from a book because you don't. You need to play it, you need to listen to it.

Sebastiaan: 15:16

It's all on the records,

Geoff: 15:17

yeah, and I to play it. You need to listen to it. It's all on the records. Yeah, and I know you teach. You teach at Purcell, don't you?

Sebastiaan: 15:23

that's right, yeah, which is a very high level. Yeah, so school for young musicians. For people who don't know it, it's in north west London, um, there's kids coming from all over the world. It's a boarding school most of it. There's some day students as well, and, um, they come from all over the world and the ages are between 8 and 20.

Geoff: 15:43

Do you ever get the eight-year-olds playing with the 20-year-olds?

Sebastiaan: 15:46

It's not like no, probably not so much, because the age difference is too big and the level is still too big. But it happens sometimes that I have, uh, 14, 15 years year olds who can play with the 18, 19 year olds. No problem, you know, and they can do gigs, man. I mean, they're frightening, they're frighteningly good man. It's great stuff for me, man, they keep me on my toes.

Geoff: 16:07

Playing with older musicians is the education that young people need, isn't it? Young musicians play.

Sebastiaan: 16:13

I guess we both learned from the older guys because they've been there and it's like, in the beginning I can understand it, like I was like that oh, I'm young and everything goes my way, it goes well, and you know, I know it all better and all that kind of stuff, yeah. And then suddenly you, you come more and more road wary and and you're like, oh right, okay, how do I, how did those guys do that, you know?

Sebastiaan: 16:35

and then I learned a lot from them

Geoff: 16:37

So hopefully young people are learning from us now. I hope so. Funny because my my son, Lewis, who plays bass, he played good. He came down here last week and sat in with him. Did you have a good time? Yeah?

Geoff: 16:48

he did yeah yeah, yeah, okay I think he was surprised, you know, when he played with you and I said, I said, well, you gotta play with Seb, you know, because I've played with him such a lot and I know what it feels like. And he said afterwards oh, he's very forward or he's very, very strong and very, you know, especially during the solos. You know Right, because I think a lot of students they get to a bass solo and the drummer will drop out and there's no support. You know, but what you do behind a bass solo is well, you play the same intensity but quieter.

Sebastiaan: 17:17

Well, that's actually what I learned from you really. I mean, solo is where you play the same intensity but quieter. Well, that's, that's actually what I learned from you really. I mean, we had this discussion, quite. We talked a lot about learn something from me. What happens a lot in bands still of good plays as well when the bass solo comes, it sort of drops the energy drops and you were saying to me like no, don't play, play more. Like you're playing behind the piano or behind the horn play.

Sebastiaan: 17:36

I like that yeah you like that, but other bass players might not yeah so I'm always trying to figure out like depends on how they play and I guess also their personality and all that. Everybody has their own way of like, how they like to be accompanied, and I know you like a stronger drummer behind you, like with more interaction, but maybe somebody else might not. You know, and I sort of make a mental note of people who you're playing with, who you're playing with, so I'm with you. I know, right, Geoff likes during the bass solo that I'm a little bit more interactive. So I'll do that or try to do that, and then maybe with somebody else they might say, um, well, a little bit less, maybe

Geoff: 18:19

So let's talk about Quartet, shall we

Sebastiaan: 18:21

Okay?

Sebastiaan: 18:22

At the apps. That's what we're here for.

Geoff: 18:23

So we have now four volumes. Amazing, of which you're on all of them.

Sebastiaan: 18:29

I don't know how you keep up with me, man. Yeah Well, I'm very, very honoured to be on all of them.

Geoff: 18:33

What was the experience like of playing on these apps?

Sebastiaan: 18:36

It's quite an experience because we recorded a lot of tunes in just a few days it was. It was a really good experience. But you know what I like about it is you have to work with people that a you can trust, b you respect, but also c. that can do the work, that can do the work and you're quite a fast worker. I like that. No, no, I like that, but it was never more than two or three takes, not that that's no one take.

Geoff: 19:03

That was one take most of the time, mostly, yeah.

Sebastiaan: 19:05

But we need to have people that are reliable, that come in time, that can play the music without any problem, and they know that the pressure is on for every take to be good, you know, and be disciplined about it, and not everybody is like that. Yeah, I was knackered though, man it was tiring.

Geoff: 19:24

It was really tiring Players that can play with a click as well. Yeah, you haven't mentioned that. Yeah, yeah, and what I love about playing with you as well is you can play on a click and the click is not an issue.

Geoff: 19:40

It's never an issue, is it? We did all those 500 tunes right.

Sebastiaan: 19:41

Well, that's good. That's good, I mean, without sounding too arrogant or whatever, but I think I can focus really well if there's, if there's something to need to be done and I'm, for instance, that day I'm like right, I know we've got only one take for for every, or maybe two for a few, but and you gave me also instructions not to play over the bar line because of you know the way the program works, so you need to keep that in mind. There's a job to be done here and we're gonna. We're gonna do it and I'm I think I'm good enough to do it

Geoff: 20:09

Disciplined.

Geoff: 20:09

Yeah, it's all about that. Yeah, and organization, you know all that stuff.

Sebastiaan: 20:13

Well, you're very organized anyhow, so that makes it a lot easier. Yeah, so. So you're gonna play the tune on the drums I wanna like sort of play two choruses with just a rhythm section and uh, play first maybe the melody of Oleo, which is based on I Got Rhythm okay, and uh, then in the second chorus, play a solo.

Geoff: 20:39

Okay, based upon that talk to us briefly about what that means.

Sebastiaan: 20:43

Well, how you do that on a non-pitched instrument yeah, well, you say it's non-pitched, but actually you can actually have, you know, with a bit of manipulation again, oh yeah, yeah, you know, okay, but okay, no, but somebody like Max Roach, for instance, really made me realize you can play melodies on it as well. It's the way you orchestrate it, but it's also the rhythms. Oleo has a very distinctive rhythm in the melody that probably people will recognize, even if I play it on one pitch.

Geoff: 21:12

Yeah, yeah. Can you just give an example on the drums?

Sebastiaan: 21:15

Yeah, one, two one, two, three, four.

Geoff: 21:27

Okay, so great. So what you're doing there? You're keeping the hi-hat going, though aren't you.

Announcement: 21:31

Yeah, you're on two and four.

Geoff: 21:33

Two and four yeah, so that's kind of nailing the swing, yeah, and in your hands you're playing the.

Sebastiaan: 21:37

The melody.

Geoff: 21:38

Playing the melody. Yeah, yeah, would you play that on other drums as well, would you? Because you just played it on the snare, didn't you?

Sebastiaan: 21:44

yeah, I played it only on the snare, but you can orchestrate it. Uh, if I do it with another tom, it's like um

Geoff: 21:49

Let's put the track on, okay, and see what happens.

Geoff: 22:01

All right, it's an eight bar intro. Right, it's an eight bar introduction. Okay, here it comes. Thank you, wow, that's great. Yeah, yeah, all right. Yeah, okay, can I ask you about soloing? Sure so where do you start at a drum solo what's? How do you start learning how to solo this?

Sebastiaan: 23:46

is a good one listening to, to the records. I always like drummers that build up a solo if I have the time, because you know I like to take my drums as a little bit of time. But that gives me the chance to develop stuff with one or two motifs, melody, I'm thinking melody, maybe not so much rhythm, yet okay, and actually a very good source for me is nursery rhymes or very simple, almost like stupid ideas you know that are that are just quarter notes start with a very simple idea. During the development of that idea, second idea might come up and it might start to mix those two and then you get more and more into like, into a jungle I guess, of like little ideas that are like sort of like threaded together by that one or two simple idea that you had in the beginning

Geoff: 24:36

So did you do a lot of transcribing

Sebastiaan: 24:39

So I listened to a lot, a lot of records I know you do, yeah and and a lot of drum solos as well.

Sebastiaan: 24:47

The physical fact of transcribing I've did do quite a few transcriptions, yes

Geoff: 24:53

Was there anything particular that you you can recall that you one particular drum lick or drum thing that inspired you that you could actually play for us?

Sebastiaan: 25:03

Yeah, yeah it was a Philly Joe Jones solo. I don't know if I've ever written this down, but it's basically. The lick is like this I do it on brushes One, two, a one, a typical Philly Joe Jones solo. It has triplets.

Geoff: 25:31

Lots of triplets, yeah.

Sebastiaan: 25:38

With those accents. Okay, I've learned that myself. Okay, it's only snare and it's accents. I've learned that myself. Okay, it's only snare and it's accents. When I listened to Philly Joe, he was so quick that I thought, like you know, in drums we talk about your strong hand and your weak hand, and I'm right-handed. So my right hand is my strong hand, left hand is my weak hand. Left hand is my weak hand. For some reason, I preferred playing that with two rights and one left, so it's right, right, left, right right, left, right, right, left, right, yeah, so one two, three, four Right right left right right left, right, right, left, right.

Sebastiaan: 26:14

Yeah, okay, years later I figured out he's doing singles. He's doing right, left, right, left, right, left.

Geoff: 26:23

So he goes, but that would mean you have to accent each chant.

Sebastiaan: 26:28

There's a different combination in accents, so he plays with the accents. I'll just say the accents One, two, three, four, left right, left right, left right, left right, left right, left right, left right, left right, left right. But if I did it my way with right left, you get left right. So that's a different combination, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, it sounds the same, it's not. Well, I hope it sounds the same.

Sebastiaan: 27:04

The funny thing is this, though, Geoff when I was in the Thelonious Monk institute at New England Conservatory, Conservatoire, one of my teachers was Charlie Persip. It was a great, great jazz drummer, played with Dizzy Gillespie and with Red Garland, Cannonball Adderley and all those people, and he was a good friend of Philly Joe. They made actually a couple of albums together. And I said to him, when we're talking about Philly Joe and how he plays that lick, and I said, well, I know he's playing the singles, but I'm doing the right, right, left, right, right, right, so I'm smuggling a little bit. He's like, well, play them for me.

Sebastiaan: 27:38

So first I played him the single the way that Philly Joe does, and then my version. He's like, yeah, he says both sound fine, but he says the better one is actually the way that you prefer to play it the right, right, left, right left. And that's you. And he says that's the beauty of jazz. He says that is you, that is your individuality. So don't see it as a mistake, see it as another approach

Geoff: 28:01

I guess everyone, everyone strives for their own thing, don't they?

Geoff: 28:03

and that's something that takes a long time, doesn't?

Geoff: 28:05

it.

Sebastiaan: 28:05

Yeah, and I think also, what a lot of people then. They, I think they're sort of confused. They think, like jazz always has to be creative and different and all that. Yes, okay, you don't want to be predictable or whatever, but there's also a phase where you have to imitate the masters, they're masters, not for nothing you know there's a reason for that.

Sebastiaan: 28:25

Then you try to interpret it your way and I think that's where a lot of people go wrong. They just think like no, I cannot play that lick at all, and you know I have to play different stuff, and they miss the boat, I think. And I think it's just that self-discovery of like okay, I'm doing it my way, it sounds good, I think, but it's actually the wrong way if I want to be like Philly Joe or something like that.

Geoff: 28:55

So any recollections about our years on the road together.

Sebastiaan: 28:59

Oh yes, oh yes, very, very good recollections. Quite a lot actually. But I tell you what musically amazing was how quickly that we I don't know how you experienced it, but there was sort of a telepathic understanding. We didn't have set lists, right, we just after a while we felt what the next tune was going to be and we all thought the same way yeah, and it became so good. I mean, that was the real. It was like you couldn't lean back. Telepathy is yeah.

Geoff: 29:29

Telep the real.

Sebastiaan: 29:29

It was like you could have been telepathy is yet telepathy, yeah, but you could also lean back because you know that, okay, I think he's gonna do this next tune and yeah, there it came, you know, and then, yeah, and then immediately we played it and it was so consistent, it was very consistent, yeah, and and it was amazing and it also seemed like at that time like whatever we did, we could put our own spin to it and it sort of found resonance with a big audience.

Geoff: 29:54

I think it was great. Do you remember we went to Auckland oh yeah. Yeah, so we stayed at that hotel, didn't we in the harbour? Yeah, and never forget, it was like the windows of the hotel were right up against the dock.

Sebastiaan: 30:07

Well, the hotel was like a boat, was like sort of a ship that was moored, it went into the water. It was modelled after a cruise ship.

Geoff: 30:15

Yeah, and it was a beautiful view, you know, over the whole harbour. I remember going to bed, you know, pulling the curtains. Next morning I pulled the curtains and overnight a bloody great big ship had pulled in and the window was five yards from my window. It was like someone else was looking in my window, but I think you.

Sebastiaan: 30:34

You didn't realize, but there was a note on the bed watch out, with, like, opening your curtains this morning because there will be a cruise ship. I will be more next to the hotel, yeah, oh it was funny.

Geoff: 30:45

Yeah, it was great, but also, it was, it was amazing because we did all the festivals, didn't we?

Geoff: 30:48

we did. We did Glastonbury, yeah, Fuji Rock yeah.

Sebastiaan: 30:51

We did the Playboy Jazz Festival in the Hollywood Ball with the rotating stage. Remember that. Yeah, with Stanley Clarke yeah and all that.

Geoff: 30:59

Yeah, I got to meet Stanley Clarke. That was. That was another story, wasn't it?

Sebastiaan: 31:02

yeah, that was a great story. Um, oh man, yeah, it's all coming flooding back. Remember Newport. I really thought Newport was a real good.

Geoff: 31:11

We went sailing in Newport.

Geoff: 31:12

Harbour and I got stuck on the reeds.

Sebastiaan: 31:13

I was with you in the boat.

Geoff: 31:16

Oh, I could sail. I've had to sail since I was 15.

Sebastiaan: 31:21

Yes, he hadn't sailed since he was 50. Oh, that was funny. It was fun.

Geoff: 31:26

It was fun, good fun and good memories, but you haven't been able to shake me off. Since then We've played together almost every week.

Sebastiaan: 31:34

We played a lot Well. Thank you for that, but you kept on asking me for your projects, and also with Trudy.

Geoff: 31:41

You're reliable and you can play with a click. You know, because I make a lot of library, you know. Yeah, that's true, that's what you know.

Sebastiaan: 31:47

Yeah, that's true, that's what you know. Yeah, you give me a lot of work, so thank you for that. That's all right, you can pay me back one day.

Geoff: 31:51

Well, you pay me back by giving me a kick down at the Troubadour.

Geoff: 31:53

yeah, Right, so I'm going to finish off. I've got a few questions, if that's all right, yeah, first question is what's your favourite album?

Sebastiaan: 32:10

Well, I have to give the cliche answer I think Kind of Blue is. It's funny. It's not a record that I listen a lot to anymore, but I know it so well that it's like it's in my mind. Miles Davis for Kind of Blue. I know it's not a surprise, but it really is a masterpiece, isn't it?

Geoff: 32:20

Well, that's kind of answering. The second question is favourite musician a lie or dead? Who'd like to play with? I mean Miles.

Sebastiaan: 32:26

Absolutely Miles for me is Bach, Beethoven, Mozart in one, you know. Yeah, it's not that not to say that I like everything that he did, but most of it what he did. Yes, it was really good and was amazing. It was not just good, it was amazing, it was like in the forefront

Geoff: 32:42

And constantly changing.

Geoff: 32:43

As well, wasn't he?

Sebastiaan: 32:44

and yeah, yeah and while, and while retaining his own identity, which is, yeah, yeah, yeah, incredible and you may have already answered this question as well earlier on but and while retaining his own identity, which is incredible.

Geoff: 32:51

And you may have already answered this question as well earlier on, but the highlight of your career, best gig moment?

Sebastiaan: 32:56

Okay

Sebastiaan: 32:56

, no, I haven't probably.

Sebastiaan: 32:58

Oh, I'm sorry, Geoff, it's not with me then. No, there were a lot of great moments. Now can I do two? Yeah, the first one was in the summer of 98. Now I'm gonna name drop stuff. I had done the tour already with Herbie, Herbie Hancock through the 'clang', there we go, that's all right, which was amazing.

Sebastiaan: 33:19

Amazing, that was through the Monk Institute. That was through the Monk Institute, yeah, and that was in South America. But that same summer I did a tour and it was actually my first UK tour before I lived here. It was two weeks with Gene Harris, pianist Gene Harris, and Martin Drew was actually the drummer, but he got a call from Oscar Peterson and the tour overlapped. So I was asked to do the last week or the last two weeks. It was with Jim Mullen and with Eddie Klein, but playing with Gene Harris, that was was amazing.

Sebastiaan: 33:51

We had never rehearsed together, we'd never met each other, and the first two gigs were at the Pizza Express and my mom and dad were there as well, which was really good fun. And, um, I said to them uh, when can I meet Gene Harris? Oh, he's having lunch at the Pizza Express. Come at one o'clock at the Pizza Express, okay. So I go towards him and I introduce myself. It's like, okay, I'm going to be playing the rest of the tour with you. Okay, great, great. And I said what time is the rehearsal? And he says, no, man, there won't be any rehearsal. Are you thirsty? Yeah, just no, we're still after nine o'clock. Remember it was Peter Wallace's day. So, uh, he said, show up one minute before nine and we'll, we'll hit it off, you know.

Sebastiaan: 34:34

And actually that's sort of I thought like man, I finally got a chance to play with someone that there's no rehearsal, I don't know what he's gonna play, I had no idea and I was like just geez, geez. So I was a bit worried about it the whole day. And then I think Jim Mullen saw me about like, say like half hour before the gig, and he's like don't worry about a thing, man, it will be all right. And literally we went on stage Geoff , from the first moment it was like we've played 25 years together and I thought that's how I want to be as a musician. And that same level of great experience.

Sebastiaan: 35:10

I had it with Clark Terry as well. That was like I played drums and it was. Somebody else was like I was like a marionette, I was like my hands were doing just, it didn't matter. It was the feeling it doesn't matter what I do, he'll make it sound great. Yeah, and that is an incredible freedom and that's what I want to achieve. You know, it's just that egoless. Yeah, do whatever you want to do. Tony Williams says it in an interview about Miles as well Do whatever you want to do, it will sound great, it will sound fine, and that is a very special feeling. Not that many musicians have that, but that was very, very special, and both of those guys are not with us anymore, so that's something that I really, really cherish, and other people as well. Like I remember playing with Jackie McLean for a week. The sound of the saxophone was just unbelievable. I literally got goosebumps just about the sound, the sheer size of the sound.

Geoff: 36:06

Well, speaking of that, do you remember when Toots Thielemans?

Geoff: 36:09

sat in with the Jamie Cullen Band band. Where was that? In Brussels.

Geoff: 36:12

It was in Brussels yeah, he came and played two tunes with us.

Sebastiaan: 36:15

I I was crying on stage, you remember yeah, it's the emotion that that came out from that guy when he played the harmonica unbelievable unbelievable and it's like so hard to explain that to to to other musicians, but you have to experience that, and what I found amazing about him is he could play notes that were not part of the chord, but just make it work.

Sebastiaan: 36:35

And you're like how on earth do you do that? I've got that also with Philip Catherine, who's a really good guitarist and he's got great timing, and I'm saying to him how do you do that? Ooh, I just do, I just do, and I think that's just the way that people hear it that way, but it's magic, it's magic, it's magical.

Geoff: 36:53

Well, that was a very long answer to a very short question. That's okay, that's a good answer. What was the last concert you went to?

Sebastiaan: 37:02

That is quite a while ago. I think the last concert I went to is also one of my idols, Charles Lloyd in the Barbican. Oh yeah, it's been a while that's been.

Geoff: 37:12

That was more than a year ago, that's because you're working all the time, you don't have time to go out yeah, yeah, and if I do have time to go out, I'm knackered.

Sebastiaan: 37:20

Yeah. So Charles Lloyd amazing, and that's. He's also one of those people that has magic. And he had the people that I saw that I was speechless. I've seen them several times Charles Lloyd, Ahmad Jamal and Pat Martino. When I saw those guys live, I just had two hours just to myself. I just didn't want to, it was just so amazing.

Geoff: 37:43

What would you say was your musical weakness?

Sebastiaan: 37:46

My musical weakness is actually funny. You know, there's a bit of discipline in practicing practicing that's. I was never really a practice animal. That started more or less when I was at Berkeley um before you mean, you don't practice enough I don't know, if I practiced more I would have. I would have been a lot better. So there's technical technicalities and maybe also musical theory. I know my musical theory and all that, but I'm not really super strong at that, you know.

Geoff: 38:12

But you're not expected to. I mean, you're a you know.

Sebastiaan: 38:14

Yeah, but that's not an excuse is it?

Geoff: 38:15

You're a drummer.

Sebastiaan: 38:19

Yeah, but that's not an excuse anymore, is it? Yeah, well, I think it's important that you know the tune as well. You know?

Geoff: 38:25

Absolutely, you know how Just Friends goes and you can phrase accordingly, can't you absolutely, and, and you know you're not just playing 32 bars, you're, you're creating something around the tune.

Sebastiaan: 38:36

Yeah, and very important you don't want to play spangling, spangling, spangling the whole time, you know. So the more you know, the better you become.

Geoff: 38:42

Do you ever get nervous on stage?

Sebastiaan: 38:45

Not anymore. I used to and I, to be honest, that's always a good sign if you're a little bit nervous, because that gives you a bit of an edge. If you're not nervous, I think then you're too comfortable with the music and that's that's a danger, because I think there should be a bit of like raw edge to the music as well. The certain gigs you get more nervous, like with Jamie, I never got nervous but Ray Gelato's gigs. Sometimes I got a bit nervous because that's very drum dependent and it's very intense the whole time and it's like Matt Bianco is a bit like that as well, that's.

Geoff: 39:18

Another band that we play together is Matt Bianco. We've been doing that for 6 or 7 years now haven't we and that's a very drum intensive gig isn't it absolutely so?

Sebastiaan: 39:27

I guess the more drum-intensive gigs and it's not that it's it's kicking the stamina up, isn't it Exactly?

Geoff: 39:32

yeah, I think that's probably what it is. Yeah, what's your favourite sandwich?

Sebastiaan: 39:37

Ooh, steak sandwich.

Geoff: 39:39

Okay, yeah, might go and have one in a minute, all right.

Geoff: 39:50

What about a favourite movie

Sebastiaan: 39:51

Man? Okay, yeah, yeah, 12 Angry Men. Henry Fonda, Henry Fonda, but I like the fact because it's actually a play, isn't it? And then the fact that it takes place in one room. It's actually one scene, really and I find it amazing and so intriguing. How long is that movie? An hour and a half, you just. You're so gripped by it and how he, one by one, persuades all the judges.

Geoff: 40:05

You know, it's amazing what about a favorite venue?

Sebastiaan: 40:08

Well, the Troubadour of course, yeah Troubadour, of course it is cozy down here it is very cozy and and the staff is amazing uh, I mean most.

Geoff: 40:17

Most people say the Albert Hall don't they.

Sebastiaan: 40:19

Well, actually, but that's a hard, that's a hard place to play. That's, the acoustics are a nightmare there. Yeah, I think, like what you said, places like this that have good acoustics, it really makes half the gig already right, yeah, and so you don't have to worry about it. But another I like Café Bravo in Bologna. It's a super small stage. That's where we're going on Thursday, yeah, but I'm not with you on that one. You're not coming.

Sebastiaan: 40:39

I'm not coming, I'm in Japan, okay. So that leads me to the next okay city, Santiago in Chile. That was amazing, that was a real all right. Okay, uh country, I think, Chile is is very special.

Sebastiaan: 40:58

But Italy, Japan, I think those are like very, very special countries yeah

Geoff: 41:01

And the very last question uh, your favorite chord

Sebastiaan: 41:04

Favorite chord? yeah minus seven flat five.

Sebastiaan: 41:08

Okay, the half diminished chord. I really like that. Why is that? Then I can play that on the piano and it sounds really good. I mean, I made a tune with a lot of half diminished chords and it's like yeah okay, I was happy with that, all right.

Geoff: 41:21

Well, I think that'll wrap it up. I think, very good. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. That's being lots of great information there, and um, and I'm looking forward to playing later on me too.

Geoff: 41:30

We're going to play some Br arsalis Marsalis tonight,

Sebastiaan: 41:32

uh absolutely, and some Sonny Rollins and um pay tribute to those masters you know great so thank you, by the way, for all the opportunities. That's really much appreciated

Geoff: 41:41

my pleasure

Sebastiaan: 41:42

.

Geoff: 41:42

Let's go and have a, have a meal now, shall we steak sandwich?

Geoff: 41:44

all right, all right, bye

Announcement: 41:49

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