Geoff: 0:01

Hello podcats, Geoff Gascoyne here, hope you're well. Today I'm in Finchley in North London and I'm going to see Mr Theo Travis, who's a terrific saxophone player and a flutist and plays lots of really interesting instruments which I'm hoping we're going to talk about.

Geoff: 0:18

Talking a little bit about his collaboration with some prog rock greats and his journey.

Geoff: 0:24

I'm looking forward to seeing him. So here we go.

Announcement: 0:43

The Quartet Jazz Standards podcast is brought to you by the Quartet app for iOS, taking your jazz play along to another level,

Geoff: 0:52

Hi Theo, you all right?

Theo: 0:53

I'm very well, Geoff, nice to see you.

Geoff: 0:54

Thanks for inviting me round. I love your display of instruments. We'll talk about those in a bit, but some really interesting stuff there.

Geoff: 1:01

Can we start talking about your background, how you got started and what turned you on to jazz and music in the first place?

Theo: 1:06

As a child I started on the flute. I was probably aged eight or nine, learned classical flute. There was quite a lot of music in the house. My mum played piano a bit and loved classical music in particular. Dad had quite a broad range of music he listened to. He did have a couple of Stan Getz albums, including Live at Storyville, so I did hear some jazz in the early days. So there was generally music around. We would go and hear classical concerts at the CBSO City Birmingham Symphony Orchestra in Birmingham where I lived. But then, probably around the age of 12, 13, I did start getting into pop music. T-rex was one of my first favourite bands. The Beatles, dad had the Blue Album and I just was obsessed by the Beatles Blue Album, everything on it. But then, having got into T-Rex, I suppose we're talking, what mid-70s, a bit of David Bowie. And then I got into Yes and the whole thing, Pink Floyd, King Grosie.

Geoff: 2:09

Great.

Theo: 2:09

And I had a guitar and I became an avid bedroom guitarist. I would just stay in my room and I had the Beatles Complete and The Who Complete and I would work out all the chords and I'd play along and sing along. As I'm saying, none of this was to do with flute and saxophone, really, and where it joined up was when I was probably 16, 17, and I got into my first band with some friends from school which was called.

Theo: 2:36

Fundamental Furniture, and the keyboard player, Hugh Nankivell, was in the Midland Youth Jazz Orchestra so he knew his jazz and loved jazz and he introduced me to John Coltrane's Afro Blue Impressions, which he thinks quite a deep end album. But just the emotional power of it just hit me. So we would sometimes jam a bit. I would take the flute to rehearsals. I was actually playing bass in the band. I think I'd graduated from bedroom guitarist to bass player in the band. Wasn't very good, but I did do flute on one tune and so I'd improvise with Hugh in rehearsals. Interestingly enough, we actually rehearsed in Andrea Vicari's loft because her younger brother, Scott Vicari, was the drummer. He was 15 or something. We had to sneak him into the pubs, we would play, but Andrea had a nice house with a loft and we would rehearse.

Geoff: 3:24

So you knew Andrea from early school.

Theo: 3:26

So I knew Andrea from school days, yeah, and then I would go to Birmingham Record Library where there was a fantastic record library and I would just take out all these albums.

Theo: 3:36

There were booths. There were actually four booths in the library where you could take a stack of vinyls and just play them. And stack of vinyls and just play them, and whatever you liked you'd take home and I'd record them on cassettes and then I'd take them. But I'd go the next day after school swap and take more. So I was an absolute sponge. I just took it all in and it's such a time of discovery in your mid-teens when you're just finding out about music. My sister actually played saxophone so I nicked her saxophone and started having a go at that then. Then I had lessons and then I got really into the jazz thing. So the sort of obsession with proggy stuff slightly took a back seat as I got more Temporarily, of course, temporarily.

Geoff: 4:13

Well, it all went full circle later.

Geoff: 4:15

So how did you learn to improvise then

Theo: 4:17

I had a teacher, a guy called Mike Reed, who was in NYJO at the time, and he sort of introduced me to some of these practice books, like there's a famous one called patterns for jazz and there's an Oliver Nelson one, patterns. And then I again I would go to Birmingham library and in the, in the music section, they had a lot of practice books and there were a lot of I think David Baker used to do a series and again there would be, there'll be patterns, there'd be theory ones, the patterns for jazz one, Jerry Coker and someone else. They give you a phrase and then they would just write the chords out, all the different chords, and they'd sometimes go chromatically and sometimes they go in fourths and sometimes they go in tones. So you'd have to remember the phrase and work it out in the different keys.

Geoff: 5:03

So as far as I remember that was different from a lot of other books, wasn't it? You know, yes, because that one actually you actually had to think, didn't you actually apply absolutely cells of music to other things

Theo: 5:13

Absolutely. And doing that, I think, was really helpful because it started making you see the chord and instantly come up with stuff or work out phrases that you'd played in other keys. So it got you more versatile in the different keys

Geoff: 5:26

And flexible of course.

Theo: 5:27

And flexible, that was very useful. And then I would find more transcription books.

Theo: 5:32

I did do some transcriptions I wasn't a big transcription person because there were so many books available of transcriptions and I would kind of work out little phrases that I liked and then I'd probably learn them. And then I would kind of work out little phrases that I liked and then I'd probably learn them. And then I would look at the Jerry Coker patterns for jazz book and I'd try and play them in the different keys, just playing through. And so I'd try and build up a facility of flexibility and a repertoire. And then went to the Midland Youth Jazz Orchestra and I would, you know, you get your solo and there'd be a bunch of chords and you'd have to do your best. But I also, very early on, was a band leader. So right from the beginning I found people, I'd get together in the living room and we'd play standards, just to do that thing of playing. I've always liked small groups, things. I've seemed to be fine at getting people together.

Geoff: 6:21

Were you, um, composing in those days? When did you start composing?

Theo: 6:25

Not then it was a little bit later Not much later, because in the band it was original music but written by Hugh, the keyboard player, and Mike Chan, the guitarist, and I was very in awe of their ability to write songs and I thought I'd love to do that. But it took me a while to have a go and it was probably two or three years, I think, when I went to university, I went to Manchester, studied classical music. Again, I found big bands in Manchester and just went along and and quite soon I found some guys and put them together and started this jazz quintet.

Geoff: 7:02

So presumably at some stage you moved to London.

Theo: 7:06

There was a jazz scene sort of on the north west around the clubs, but it's not London, I mean London's, where everyone is and London's where it all happens.

Theo: 7:14

And you know I would listen to the radio programmes Peter Clayton's Sunday Night Jazz thing and you know other jazz things on Radio 3. And you'd hear about I think it was the time of kind of Loose Tubes and you know you'd just be. You know I had been to Ronnie Scott's. I'd come down from Birmingham so I was kind of aware that London was where I wanted to go.

Geoff: 7:36

So I know that you've played a lot of prog rock. Can you tell me how you you're laughing um which is great, can you tell

Geoff: 7:43

me how that came about and how you moving from jazz into prog rock

Theo: 7:46

When I was first in London, as I said, I had my jazz band and quartets and playing around et cetera, on the jazz scene there were a couple of other peoples I'd been asked to record saxophone and flute on records for including one in a studio in Brixton. I know exactly when it was. It was early 1997. I got a call out of the blue. I know exactly when it was. It was early 1997. I got a call out of the blue. I pick up the phone. Someone says hello, my name is Mick Karn, I'm a bass player.

Geoff: 8:10

Mick Karn was the bass player from one of my favourite bands ever called Japan.

Theo: 8:14

Hello, my name is Mick Karn. His was, I hear, you're a saxophone player. So he had his group with three other ex-Japan people Steve Jansen the drummer, Richard Barbieri the keyboard player and they had a bunch of work. They had a little label called Medium Productions and they had some work coming up and they needed a saxophone player. I'd been recommended. Would I be interested? Was I free? So I said yes,

Geoff: 8:40

Of course you did,

Theo: 8:41

And what it turned out being was a TV show in the Netherlands, something called Two Meters, a gig at the Astoria 2, Charing Cross Road downstairs and a month in Japan, literally a month in Japan doing a tour with a kind of multi-artist programme headlined by this guy called Sugizo who was in a huge Japanese rock band called Lunacy. So these were big gigs and about two or three weeks rehearsing.

Theo: 9:10

Later on, when I kind of knew him better, we got to be good friends actually all of them, particularly Mick actually was lovely and Steve. Anyway, later on I said why did you call me? There's lots of good saxophone players. He said well, there were two reasons. There seemed to be two reasons, and I'm never sure which is the real one. One was that I did this session in this Brixton studio and I'd been recommended by the engineer. That sounds nice. The other one was that my name's Theo and Mick is a Greek Cypriot and he liked the idea of a Greek geezer on saxophone, which, knowing Mick, is probably all a combination.

Geoff: 9:46

Partly true? Yeah, Probably partly true, Anyway.

Theo: 9:48

I'm not Greek, my parents just like the name, Theodore, wow. So we did this rehearsal and there was another. So there was me, the three of them, and then there was a guitarist who's gone on to do amazing things, called Stephen Wilson, who was just the side man guitarist and I got on very well with him and ended up recording on some of his projects and we had a lot of musical interests in common. It's interesting music. There was some singing, but not much. So in jazz world we tend to have a head and solos and a head, and that's kind of often what we do.

Theo: 10:18

This wasn't like that. This was like the pieces of music were kind of improvised and then solidified, so they would sort of improvise and record it, embellish it and colour it with textures, and that was kind of it. And then you'd kind of learn it and then you'd play it. So there wasn't an obvious head, solo, head, and there would be improvising in it in sections. And I found it quite inspiring because it's quite liberating, because when you're used to a form, any formula, whether it's head, solos head or something else, it just kind of opens things up. And in fact, after that liberating experience, I then kind of took it on board this idea of you don't need a head, solo head and started this improvising trio I had with John Marshall, Mark Wood and me, and again the idea was we just improvise and record and see what we.

Theo: 11:04

Again the idea was we'd just improvise in recordings, see what we thought. What was it like? We went into a studio and did a bunch of recordings and the only preconceived ideas was one let's keep them shortish, so they tended to be under six minutes, anything from two to six. And the other preconceived idea is whatever we do, next time we do something, let's do it different. Wow. Whatever we do, next time we do something, let's do it different, wow. So no chordal anything, no groove, anything.

Geoff: 11:27

That's fantastic. I love that

Theo: 11:29

And it worked really well. So we made an album and it came out in 33 records. I'm very proud of it, and the thing I loved about the recordings we did was that some would be hardcore noise, some would be incredibly delicate and some which I was particularly proud of, being a free improvising champ was harmonic, but not on one chord, not on a drone, because Mark tended to play the baritone guitar and he's got a whole kind of Brazilian music thing.

Geoff: 11:55

There's a huge range in the baritone guitar isn't it

Theo: 11:58

Yes and because it's quite low. So he would play harmonic. You know beautiful kind of guitaristic harmonic sequences and I would have to ear-roll I mean I haven't got perfect pitch but I'd have to kind of ear-roll it and kind of follow it. And John Marshall sadly no longer with us was a very good improviser, really very much a composer as he played. So he would listen, sometimes it'd be groove, sometimes it'd be swing, sometimes it'd be just made-up rhythms, you know Wow. So it'd be this huge palette and we did a tour of the kind of hardcore improv clubs and sometimes people said this doesn't sound improvised enough because there's a traditional free improv which is, you know, noise often and this would go into harmonic areas which was completely freely improvised but wasn't traditional what free improvisers do.

Geoff: 12:49

So when you toured were you playing the record?

Geoff: 12:52

like the record?

Theo: 12:52

Well interesting, very good question.

Theo: 12:54

So there were some areas on the record which could just be a sound or could be a feel, generally not harmonic point, tonal area.

Geoff: 13:05

Well, I would have thought that trying to recreate something that you've done spontaneously would kind of negate the whole point of it.

Theo: 13:13

It does yes, so generally it would be free, but sometimes there'd be like sound, even if it was a case of there'd be a guitar feel in a certain key, he might start like that, but it would go wherever. I wish we'd recorded them all, all the gigs properly. We did record quite a few, although I don't know where the tapes are. But it is an interesting question when you have something that's a specific set of sound pictures and then you go on to and, yes, you don't want to recreate them, but at the same time you want the flavour of the variety. So this kind of came from the Mick Karn, Steve Jansen , everything which we did the tour. So Steve Wilson had been a sideman and I went to his studio and after that tour I recorded some things with him. He's prolific composer and studio.

Geoff: 13:59

I'm a big fan of Steven Wilson's work.

Geoff: 14:02

I love the fact that he's a producer that plays and he's I'm just curious about how he worked in the studio and kind of what kind of control he would take.

Theo: 14:12

It depends on the project. So the first thing I did with him in the studio was two things actually. One was playing on some songs he'd already recorded. He had a band called Porcupine Tree and he was recording an album called Stupid Dream at the time and he wanted some sax solos, some flute solos on about three or four songs. So on those the song was recorded. There was a big open section where he wanted the sax solo. So he gave me a recording of that and said I want sax solo on that. So it was basically a case of do a sax solo on saxophone there. So it was basic a case of To a saxophone, the big section. What he would do sometimes is like if I was on a roll he would just extend the section Mm-hmm, or afterwards he might re jig, the arrangement. So flexible in the very flexible. That's great. And that was even on a fixed song.

Theo: 15:02

The other project was something called Bass Communion which was was very ambient, sound exploratory and it was really a case of bring some instruments, what have you got, let's try stuff. And he's very interested in sonic possibilities. So for example, on the first Bass Communion album I took the soprano and he just said try something. So I would try something and I would try some pretty angular free stuff. And then he would enjoy slowing it down, reversing it, cutting it up, mangling it to pieces, putting it through anything and everything cassette mod type processing, just to see the sound. And he'd enjoy sound processing from an acoustic source rather than from a MIDI or electronic source. So that was how the Bass Communion thing happened. There are other albums. I mean I've recorded a lot with Steve over the years now and he's generally interested in possibilities. So I mean, more often than not I'll bring stuff and he'll say try something. And then he might say, try something else.

Theo: 16:07

and it's very creative, it's not like a Steely Dan, no, no I haven't done one, but like I imagine they are where it's like we want this we want this, we want this way more organic than that. It's very organic. It's very much like try something. Yeah, I like that try something he's amazing producer, and so you get.

Theo: 16:21

I've had some wonderful things come out of the sessions with Steve, in fact the last album but one. I was telling him about the duduk, which is this beautiful Armenian woodwind instrument. I said I've got this thing, that's rather interesting. And he said, oh, let's try that, let's try it. So we tried it on some tracks and it ended up on one track. But then what he sometimes does is he'll release an album and then he'll release a kind of box set, director's cut of the album. On the previous album there was this one track with the duduk, but it's like he'll have a Blu-ray of outtakes, all these other things, or he'll try other things. So it's very creative and very enjoyable Incredible.

Geoff: 17:02

Are you still in touch with him?

Theo: 17:04

Yeah, yeah.

Theo: 17:05

So he just released an album a couple of months ago which I'm on quite a bit, and then he's doing. He's in the middle of a world tour at the moment. He did four nights at the London Palladium right and I saw him just beforehand. He said oh, do you want to guest? It'd be lovely if you go because I'm on this. There's a kind of quite ambient soprano. He said, yeah, come on, come on, yes. So I I popped into the London Pa equal and played on three tracks. Quite often will collaborate on interesting things, like a year ago.

Theo: 17:42

Again, I was telling him about the duduk and I, because he's very into surrounds and he does a lot of these surround sound remixes and I said wouldn't be amazing to have duduk and then like full-on surround sound 5.1 soundscapes.

Geoff: 17:52

Wow, yes,

Theo: 17:53

he said that sounds good, so I said let's do it. So we did it and also I've been doing these YouTube duduk ambient.

Geoff: 18:01

I was going to ask you about this actually,

Theo: 18:03

So, so this is related to that.

Theo: 18:04

So I've been doing these YouTube ambient duduk meditation things. They're quite popular when they're an hour.

Geoff: 18:10

Some of them are four and five hours, aren't they?

Theo: 18:13

Yes, but they tend to. I don't play for four or five hours.

Theo: 18:16

They tend to be like 30, 40 minutes, yeah, okay. So I said, Steve, let's, let's, I think it'd be good to do like an hour with a duduk and then the surround sound and then you do your thing and we did it. There's a label

Theo: 18:27

I've done some things for the guy who has released all the King Crimson material and I mentioned it to him and he has had an interesting history with record labels because he actually signed Sir Karl Jenkins and released the Adi Amos albums which were a big popular crossover thing. He signed Michael Nyman for the soundtrack for the piano, which was a big popular crossover thing, because it's not just people that like that artist or that music, it's like it's just got a sound that's appealing. And I thought we were just going to release this thing independently and I was talking to him about this project. He went no, I like this, this could be a thing. So, bless him. He did the full CD Blu-ray so we've got a physical product of the Steve Wilson surround sound Incredible and did a thing. Sad to say, it didn't do that well, but it happened and it came out.

Theo: 19:27

And again.

Theo: 19:28

It was an example of me collaborating with Steve just suggesting an idea. He likes the artistic idea and runs with it.

Geoff: 19:30

I love that

Geoff: 19:31

idea. I'd love to work with Steven Wilson. He's a, I'm a huge fan if he's listening.

Geoff: 19:37

Let's collaborate.

Geoff: 19:40

Can we talk a bit about your instruments thing? You mentioned the duduk. Are you able to just give us a little sample of some of these things? Sure, because as we sit here, there's a whole tray of interesting sticks with different colours on them and presumably flutes, right?

Theo: 19:57

Yes, flutes.

Geoff: 19:59

There's a soprano sax. There's a couple of flutes. There's an alto flute.

Theo: 20:04

Yes, I brought the concert flute, which is probably the main one Alto flute I love it's a fourth lower, me too. Yeah, I like that too. So it's a kind of lower richer, deeper, slightly more mysterious sound.

Theo: 20:17

And I really like it and I've done a lot specifically on alto flute. Then I have a bass flute, which is a lovely beast. I tend to only really use it in the studio, but it's a fantastic sound.

Geoff: 20:31

So this thing, the duduk, I'm fascinated by this thing. Just tell us all about this.

Theo: 20:37

So it's a woodwind. It's a very simple, in a way, musical instrument. It's one piece of wood, always made from the wood of an apricot tree, and the reed is a double reed, a huge double reed, about four times the size of a bassoon double reed. And they are very fragile and quite hard to tune and quite hard to get. I actually have to get them from Armenia, by post. They're quite hard to look after, they're hard to keep in tune.

Geoff: 21:09

I mean, it looks a bit like a basic descant recorder, doesn't it?

Theo: 21:13

Yes, it looks like it exactly.

Theo: 21:15

In fact it's simpler, because descant recorders, well, they'll have like two holes on the bottom. This is just literally eight holes. So it's diatonic, so it's just the notes of a scale. But you have to half hole the holes to make some of the semitones. And there's something magical about it when it's in the right hands. I mean, I'm, you know, very much a beginner and learner, but I'll have a go and play um um,

Geoff: 22:17

Wow, that's lovely.

Geoff: 22:19

It's interesting how you're making the vibrato with your cheek.

Theo: 22:21

Yes, so you kind of puff your cheeks out like Dizzy Gillespie plus. It's a gorgeous sound.

Theo: 22:27

And that's how you do the vibrato yeah, from the mouth and the lips. I mean. I became aware of duduk probably 25 years ago because I was in a band called Gong and there was another sax player who loved duduk and he played a lot of it. But at the time I wasn't interested. I was into Bob Berg, Mike

Theo: 22:48

Brecker you know Bob Mintzer, Stan Getz, Dexter Gordon, all the jazz players. I wasn't that interested in duduk and it was only really about 15 to 20 years later. I got into it. I think originally through that soundtrack, the Peter Gabriel soundtrack, Last Temptation of Christ. When there's a track called The Feeling Begins, with some beautiful duduk on it, and I heard some on on it and I heard some on the internet and I did get one. And then, during lockdown 2020, it became my lockdown, one of my lockdown projects learn the thing, work on the thing. And then I did a load of recording in my studio and in fact, made an album.

Theo: 23:28

Put it into context that the duduk is not normally in, so you often hear it in. for example, you know traditional Armenian music and, as I say, on the Peter Gabriel is a bit of crossover. But you know doing what I do and like I thought, well, it's an amazing sound. It'd be nice to try it with songs.

Geoff: 23:45

I think I first heard it on a

Theo: 23:46

Paul

Geoff: 23:47

McCartney

Geoff: 23:47

used it McCartney Chaos and Creation. Yes, Chaos and Creation in the Ba Yard. That's it, Chaos and Creation. It's, on that, really nice. And it is also on a David Silvian track Darkest Dreaming.

Geoff: 23:59

Yes, yeah.

Theo: 23:59

So it has been used in some songs, and it's just magical, gorgeous.

Geoff: 24:05

I could talk to you all day about this. I want to hear more about Mick Karn, but I probably don't have time.

Theo: 24:10

I could say one thing that's interesting about Mick Karn Go on, go on. Apart from the fact he's lovely and I loved what he did, he had a great sound, he had a great time, he had a great feel, he had great ideas. He had no idea what he was doing. He barely knew what the notes of the strings were. He certainly wouldn't know what the notes were up the frets, up the fretless fretboard. He just he kind of approached it in a kind of naive way. You know, he knew instinctively about music and he knew about you know time and harmony and feel but, he had no theoretical knowledge at all.

Theo: 24:51

He literally just played with his friends from school and they put songs together and he'd work out things. You know all the stuff that we as jazz musicians study and know and learn. You can take all that stuff that we learn and know as jazz musicians and throw it out the window and have an artist and a musician as individual, as proficient, as great as Mick Karn.

Geoff: 25:14

Do you find that also working with more rock musicians, that you come across that more often than jazz?

Theo: 25:21

Oh yeah, totally. I mean, jazz musicians know their stuff. It's what we do. We kind of learn about harmony, we learn about theory. You know we can generally play in lots of different keys. We can read chord symbols, rock musicians generally well, it's a generalisation but often can't do that at all. They come from the song you know, maybe playing guitar or playing piano, maybe using a recording studio to build things up that they then record and then recreate. But they generally don't have that harmony knowledge and yeah, I've played with a lot of people who don't have that theoretical knowledge that jazz musicians do.

Theo: 25:58

I enjoy it because I have an affinity with a lot of the music they will make. I can think of quite a few jazz musicians I know who, if they were in that situation, would not be able to help themselves from kind of looking down on it, because these people don't know, some of them won't know the theoretical knowledge and a generation that's kind of.

Geoff: 26:15

I know exactly what you mean.

Theo: 26:17

Particularly having the experience with Mick Karn and people like that, I go yeah, yeah, but that's not. It's not what's important. What's important is the music.

Theo: 26:24

And however you get there is fine and in you get there is is fine and, in fact, sometimes people can be more original by not having all this history in their playing. And no,

Geoff: 26:35

That's something that I've tried to explore over the last couple of years, because I started a songwriting club which you were a member of. How long were you a member of my, my club?

Theo: 26:44

For um, it was about 18 months,

Geoff: 26:46

So we tried to do stuff that was not consciously cerebral.

Geoff: 26:51

We tried to do loads of different things.

Geoff: 26:52

You remember,

Theo: 26:53

I do absolutely and it was a really, well, first of all, I absolutely adored being in the songwriting club and I've still got all the songs I wrote and, in fact, probably from some of the ones, other people did One. It was super creative. I think having the different themes or the different disciplines or the different parameters, throwing you out of your comfort zone or just making you try something that you haven't done before, but within a supportive group, I think spurred you on.

Theo: 27:17

And the other thing I found is that some weeks I would come with a song that I was really proud of I thought would be really good and I thought I'm going to play them, my song, and it's going to be really good. And then I'd hear other people's songs and they were so good them, my song, and it's going to be really good. And then I'd hear other people's songs and they were so good, they were so amazing. I thought, well, I guess mine's all right and and. But that would make you think, right, try harder, Theo. And you kind of would try harder and then spur you on each week.

Theo: 27:41

You'd kind of spur you on, and so it was. It was very interesting and again for me. I mean I have done some songwriting, but not that much, and I would try things for the songwriting group and again in a supportive group of very creative people.

Geoff: 28:03

So I've made some apps, yes, and I think you know a little bit about them.

Geoff: 28:09

You've experienced experienced them. I asked you to pick a tune to play on today right what did you pick?

Theo: 28:15

So I picked 500 Miles High by Chick Corea. It's a tune that I have played quite a lot on gigs and I always enjoy playing on it. It's a tune I tend to approach in a different way to if I was approaching a classic standard, a Days of Wine and Roses or a

Theo: 28:32

Beautiful Love or All The Things You Are. Because I think, partly because of the feel, the rhythmic feel, it's a Latin one, it's a straight eights one and it's often on gigs one that people will build. So they might start with a half time sort of cross stick feel and then they'll go into a samba or whatever. So it's often one that you really can get that forward flow and the build of energy. And also I really like the chord sequence. It's got this really interesting chord sequence where there's these sort of home chords, the minors, and then when it goes between them it does these interesting kind of stepwise movements that I find very satisfying.

Theo: 29:10

And sometimes they're a pair of chords that seem quite far away from each other but they're very close. So, for example, the fourth bar is a B-flat major and the sixth bar is a B half-diminished. They sound like quite different chords, a major seventh and a half-diminished, but of course the B-flat major, B-flat D-F-A. The only difference between that and the B half diminished is you move the root, the semitone. There's that great quote which I'm sure you'll appreciate a chord is only a chord when the bass player decides what note to play.

Theo: 29:40

Yeah, and that's exactly what happens there, because the Bb slips up to a B. It's clever, isn't it? And it happens more than once. So you've got the A minor, bar nine, which goes to an F sharp half diminished. And A minor, you've got A, c, e and again F sharp half diminished sounds miles away. But if you've got your A minor, you just slip in the F sharp underneath it. So you've got these lovely stepwise movements between the chords,

Geoff: 30:08

The interesting one that I always point out is because it kind of resolves to C minor, doesn't it?

Geoff: 30:12

Yes, and then in the last bar. It goes to B7 altered yes, and if you know about harmony, if you play C minor over B, B7, that gives you B altered Exactly. So what you can do you can stay in C minor and play while the bass player is playing a, b, you can still play C minor.

Geoff: 30:31

It's just genius.

Theo: 30:32

It is. It really is it is. So I love these things about this tune, plus if you add to that the build. Ok. so the intro is kind of getting in the car and then we've got gear one, gear two, gear 3 gear 4, and I kind of try and build it in the performance. But it's just a very it's one of those standards that's just very enjoyable to play. It's probably why people pick it and play it and the interesting sequence. So that's why I wanted to do that tune

Geoff: 31:01

Right

Geoff: 31:01

. So here we go.

Geoff: 31:05

So um, um, um, um, um. Oh, that's great.

Theo: 33:18

Thank you. I love the C minor over B. It's such a great sound, isn't it?

Geoff: 33:23

What a great song. Yeah, how is it playing along with the app? How do you find it?

Theo: 33:27

I like playing along with tracks and have done it forever. To be honest, whether it's apps like this, which is brilliant because of the actual quality of the playing and the sound, and everything. Or I've even, you know, have played along with album tracks. I remember when I started out I would play along with Santana's Moonflower, which is a great live album because there's so much amazing percussion and energy and a lot of it is kind of one chord.

Theo: 33:55

I've done a lot of recording so I'm used to putting on the cans and playing a lot of two stuff which I like. It's a comfortable environment.

Geoff: 34:03

Did you use the Jamey Aebersold playalongs?

Theo: 34:05

back in the day. Yes, back in the day I used the Jamey Aebersold play-alongs. I even went to a Jamey Aebersold course at Goldsmiths University. Oh God, when would that have been? Early 80s, I suppose.

Geoff: 34:17

So you got to hear him count in in the flesh One, two, three, four.

Theo: 34:23

I got to hear him count in in the flesh. I got to hear him play in the flesh. It was very prescriptive, but what a guy. I mean what an amazing thing that was that he started. I mean there's like 100 Jamey Aebersold albums.

Theo: 34:37

I mean I have had whatever? Quite a few of them and there were some quite interesting ones. So the classic standard ones and the Maiden Voyage et cetera are great. One I used to like, which is interesting. It kind of ties into one of your app tracks is. There's a David Liebman one which was pretty out there, it was kind of Lookout Farm, and there's some tracks which are flying all over the place and there'd be whole tracks which are I can't remember the name of the track.

Theo: 35:03

there'd be a long free one, but, you know, with rhythm section free so flying about and sometimes I would play along and literally just try and keep in time with it or lock into the groove with it or practice scales with it, just so I could play in time at those sort of speeds. And then because it was free and the piano would be playing very much outside the changes, just holding on, and that was quite an advanced one

Geoff: 35:30

Because you know, I included a free improvisation yes, I volume four,

Theo: 35:36

four in volume four.

Theo: 35:37

Yeah, I was fascinated to see that and I did pull it up and I played along with it and it was really interesting because I play quite a lot of free improvised music in different contexts and different people.

Theo: 35:50

So I was fascinated to hear how the app free improvisation track would work. So I played along with it and then I thought I know what's gonna be interesting. I'm gonna play around with the app, with the different instrumentations, the different groupings, because when I first put it on it I played along to piano bass drums, which is probably the setting I generally have. And then I thought, well, I'll try pulling the piano out because you can have these different options of the musicians playing on the app. So I pulled the piano out and put the trumpet in because I thought you know, trumpet, sax, bass, drums is a kind of classic combination. I'll be interested to see what goes on.

Theo: 36:25

So I played along with that, which I enjoyed, and did something quite different. But I remember thinking that the trumpet was quite diatonic in a way, of what he played. So then I pulled the trumpet out and played along with the bass and drums and I played different stuff to that again, but all the time, you know, it's quite fresh and refreshing and the instruction is it's free, so you can do what you like. But sometimes when I played along, I would just jump into a different key. Yeah, because it's like well, this is where I'm playing, yeah, yeah, and you can play there and I'm playing here, and that's what it is. But it was good and it was fun and interesting to do it, along with the app, and the series of apps has so many great classic standards that it was interesting to play in another area as

Geoff: 37:14

So, to finish off, I've got some questions, starting off with, what's

Geoff: 37:20

your favourite album.

Theo: 37:21

I'll give you my favourite jazz album, because that's easy. Stan Getz, Sweet Rain 1967. Stan Getz, Chick Corea, one of his first recordings. Ron Carter, Grady Tate on drums. I've loved this album for many, many years. It sounds gorgeous, it sounds like it was recorded yesterday. The tunes are fabulous Litha, Windows, Con Alma. Yeah, Stan Getz sounds amazing, it's just perfect. Yeah, it sounds modern, it sounds fresh, it sounds classic, it sounds experimental.

Geoff: 37:51

What about in the other world? In your progressive world.

Theo: 37:55

That's very hard. In the progressive world. I'd certainly certainly, Yes, Close to the Edge. King Crimson, Red or in the Court of the Crimson King. I like Brian Eno's On Land. I like Quadrophenia by The who.

Geoff: 38:08

Right, interesting. Okay. So question two is there a favourite musician, alive or dead, you would like to play with?

Theo: 38:15

I'd like to play live with David Torn. I've played with him on record and we've met, but never live, and he's a very interesting experimental guitarist. I like what he does. Then there's the obvious Paul McCartney and Steve Winwood, but that's less likely.

Geoff: 38:31

You never know. Is there a highlight of your career?

Geoff: 38:34

So far?

Theo: 38:35

There've been many highlights, I guess playing with some of the great artists who I enjoyed listening to as a 15-year-old.

Geoff: 38:44

I know you played with Robert Fripp, didn't you?

Theo: 38:46

Yes, did a lot with Robert Fripp. We did a lot of live gigs, five albums. One highlight would definitely be we did a concert at Coventry Cathedral, literally just a duo, kind of improvised by areas surround sound. The new Coventry Cathedral is amazing. It was an incredible gig and after the gig Robert looked to me and went that's the next album and that did become an album, Live at Coventry Cathedral and we didn't edit any of it. Amazing, and I remember at the end of the gig I just remember thinking where the hell did that come from? Because it wasn't even like vocabulary that I'd often done used. It was just like one of those wow moments.

Geoff: 39:31

Just reacting, surely, yeah, reacting.

Theo: 39:34

But in the church, the cathedral context, it kind of puts you and everything in a kind of certain headspace. Wow, wow. So that was a special highlight, incredible.

Geoff: 39:43

What was the last concert you attended?

Theo: 39:45

I think it was my local jazz club, actually at The Elephant Inn in North Finchley. Ralph Moore, the sax player, was over here doing a tour and playing locally, so I went along to that and it was great, guys, I know. In the rhythm section.

Theo: 40:00

So yeah, Ralph Moore.

Geoff: 40:01

Fabulous, fabulous. What would you say is your musical weakness?

Theo: 40:05

Probably I can think of two of the many Repertoire. on standards, I'm not that good. When you go to a standards session, I always feel I should know more. When I'm fronting it, I can call the ones that I know, which makes it too easy. And probably the other thing I'm not I'm weak at is practicing. I get distracted so easily. I'll play some scales and then I'll start tidying the room and looking out the window and looking at my watch and then going and looking at email. So, and I should say that both these weaknesses that occurred to me are helped by things like your apps. Because… Good answer, because you've got so many standards, it's like okay, here they are, just learn the buggers.

Geoff: 40:45

What should I play today?

Theo: 40:46

Just learn one and practicing. When you're thinking of going and making yet another cup of tea, put on an app and play to the end and then play another one, so it sort of keeps you in the room. So I think it does help for that excellent,

Geoff: 41:02

Good answer.

Geoff: 41:02

I love the way you brought the apps into that one! Do you ever get nervous on stage?

Theo: 41:04

Rarely, but occasionally, either if I'm doing something very exposed, maybe in an unusual situation, or I'm not sure what I'm doing.

Theo: 41:14

I mean again, I can think of a particular time it was a while ago but when I remember being nervous there was a big farewell concert for a great pianist called Harold Budd. He's done kind of experimental, kind of quite naive sort of ambient music in a way. He worked with Brian Eno quite a bit and he did a farewell concert in Brighton, Brighton Dome, and it was him and a bunch of collaborators, really interesting people um Gia Wobble, John Fox, Bill Nelson, Alex, the Balanescu quartet, anyway, the whole concert in Brighton Dome, big audience, big event, starts off unaccompanied alto flute and flute itself is is something. If you're nervous, your embouchure goes, alto flute even more. Yeah, put yourself in front of 1500 people on a piece of music you don't know very well, yeah and yeah, so I was nervous then.

Theo: 42:07

Yeah, but generally not too bad.

Geoff: 42:09

What's your favorite sandwich?

Theo: 42:11

Easy, cheese and pickle. Branston

Geoff: 42:13

So many people say that. Mark Lockheart said that yesterday exactly the same,

Theo: 42:18

Oh, sorry.

Theo: 42:19

It's a classic. It's a classic. It's fine, it's a classic.

Geoff: 42:22

What about a favourite movie?

Theo: 42:24

Quadrophenia I was a Who fan. It's a great album and I love the film.

Geoff: 42:28

What about a favourite venue?

Theo: 42:30

Ronnie Scott's I love it.

Geoff: 42:33

What about a favourite country or city?

Theo: 42:35

Scottish Highlands. I love the Scottish Highlands and I've been there many times, sort of on the West Coast, many holidays, love it. I've also actually taken my jazz quartet up there in a kind of crazy labour of love. A few years back now. but we played on the Island of Skye, we played on the Island of Mull, we played in the library on Iona, which is tiny and it was a kind of amazing tour.

Theo: 42:59

One place as a British jazz musician that is magical and has always been and whenever I play there you feel it in your veins is when you play in New York City. I remember when I first did it, going into Manhattan on a Greyhound bus with the band Gong and we played at the Knitting Factory. And in fact recently, about a year or so ago, with Soft Machine, we played at the City Winery. And Manhattan itself is not big, it's a few square miles, and you stand on stage and you think all the greats you know Coltrane, Miles, Sonny Rollins, Monk, everyone they became famous in these two square miles. And you are here, especially in a band like Soft Machine, where we're playing our own music. And when you play a solo and I'm thinking I'm in New York City,

Geoff: 43:46

You're soaking up the vibe, aren't you?

Theo: 43:48

You're soaking up the vibe and you're kind of channeling it.

Theo: 43:52

As a jazz player to play in New York City. It's amazing,

Geoff: 43:55

I didn't really ask you about Soft Machine?

Geoff: 43:57

Did you do you compose for Soft Machine, the new

Geoff: 43:59

iteration

Theo: 44:00

Yes

Theo: 44:00

very much so I'm probably the main composer. Well, certainly for the last few years, last three albums, we do about 50% of our new original music some of it's freely improvised great, a big, big part of what I do

Geoff: 44:18

fantastic.

Geoff: 44:18

The final question, which I know you've been looking forward to, is what's your favourite chord?

Theo: 44:21

Oh, I love this question. I've been thinking about this question. So my favourite chord is a chord that is both major and minor at the same time. People talk about major being happy and minor being sad and there's this chord that is both at the same time and I'm thinking how can that be? It's incredible.

Theo: 44:41

So my favourite chord is a G6 or a sixth chord, because you've got your major third at the bottom, so G B, major third, and with the E at the top it's major, but of course it's an E minor, first inversion. So it's minor and it's major and it's sort of emotionally slightly ambiguous because it's major and it's minor, so it's got this whole kind of world within itself. And, yes, because the sixth chord does often have that character, but I think it has other characters and this ambiguity thing, and so that's my favorite.

Geoff: 45:13

Fantastic, what a great way to finish. I could talk to you all day, but, but obviously we've got to stop. But so, Theo, thank you so much for your

Geoff: 45:21

time. Pleasure. I just want to hear about Mick Karn all day because he's my hero, but maybe we'll talk about that in a minute.

Geoff: 45:28

But thank you so much and I hope we can play together sometime.

Theo: 45:33

Yeah, absolutely.

Theo: 45:34

We haven't done a gig for a while. We have done gigs, but not for a while.

Geoff: 45:38

Yeah, thanks again, and we'll speak to you very soon. Thank you, all the best.

Geoff: 45:43

Bye.

Announcement: 45:45

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