Geoff: 0:01

Hello podcats, Geoff Gascoyne here, hope you're well. Today I'm in the West End of London and I'm going to see someone who I've been looking forward to speaking to for many, many months now. In fact, since I started this podcast, he was the first guy I thought of. Today, it's the great Jim Mullen, who has been a massive influence on many people, especially me, and very supportive throughout the years. A great guy, wonderful player. So I'm really looking forward to speaking to him. So here we go.

Announcement: 0:52

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Geoff: 1:01

Jim.

Jim: 1:01

Hey, nice to see you. I was just thinking. You know, when you were still a bass guitarist before, I think, before you were playing the double bass, right, yeah, and you used to dip with Lawrence and my electric quartet, remember I did yeah. And then we did a gig in somewhere in Bavaria, yeah, and you did the gig with Georgie Fame. Right. And then you went over to double bass. I think after that was yeah right,

Geoff: 1:22

Good . .

Geoff: 1:23

So can we start talking a bit about how you got into jazz and what was the first jazz that you've heard that kind of inspired you to play?

Jim: 1:30

So when I first started playing jazz, the only part that I could really relate to were the bass parts, because they played the fewest number of notes.

Jim: 1:37

You know, getting a lot of gigs as a bass player in those days. Actually, you know, my first hero was Ray Brown. I was very fortunate that Jazz at the Philharmonic used to come to Glasgow every year. So I mean I saw everybody you know Ellington, Basie several times, Ella Fitzgerald, Sarah Vaughan, Oscar Peterson Trio with Ray Brown and Ed Thigpen. Exciting. and they were. You couldn't get past them at one time, you know. I mean Oscar still had all these his virtuosity, the double octave things and flying around ridiculous tempos but, you couldn't take your eyes or your ears off of Ray Brown because his grooves were so killing.

Jim: 2:13

And this was in a cinema and the PA. there was two speakers this size, one on the other side of the stage, one mic on the piano and one mic for Oscar to talk into. That was it. Nothing on the bass, he didn't even have a bass amp, Ed Thigpen. But I mean just the way they played together, you know, it was fantastic. I mean I was absolutely transfixed and, like all great concerts I've ever been to, I couldn't remember any of the music afterwards because I was so transported that all I could think of was what an amazing feeling that it happened, you know. And actually I saw Coltrane play in Glasgow, Did you? When I was 16. he played in Glasgow in 1960 and it was the quintet with Eric Dolphy.

Geoff: 2:54

Funny you should say that because I interviewed Alan Skidmore and he saw Coltrane on the same, it must have been the same trip in Walthamstow's Town Hall. And he said he played one tune. Is that right, oh?

Jim: 3:05

He played two tunes in Glasgow. He played Favourite Things and Naima, oh right, and Dolphy was there and Dolphy was doing all these bird impressions, you know tweet, I don't mean Charlie Parker, I mean birds, you know, tweeting around and a lot of the musicians got walked out doing this, you know, doing this, you know. But I remember the intensity of it, you know it was in this. Glasgow had a great opera house at that time called the St Andrew's Halls. A week after Coltrane played there it burnt down and it was in the round. So all the drummers were behind Elvin, you know, and there was 50 drummers behind him.

Jim: 3:38

It was amazing, I mean, it was like a trance, you know, it was like a mantra, you know. Yeah, you know the way that they played things like Favourite Things, you know. And Coltrane's sound always got me. You know how beautifully lyrical it was, you know. And just about that time, maybe a year or two later, an American naval base came to the Holy Loch in Scotland. Suddenly, you'd see all these black sailors in sailor suits on weekend passes in Glasgow, you know. And there was a little jazz club called The Cell, you know, it looked like a cell actually, you know. Suddenly these guys came into the clubs and started sitting in borrowing saxophone. That was kind of exciting, you know.

Jim: 4:13

But the Jazz at the Philharmonic was, I suppose, my first introduction to the real thing. I think when you hear something that's incredibly moving, it stays with you. I can't remember any of the details of the music at all, but I can remember the feeling, you know, and going away and thinking about it and then trying to play some of that, the sort of tempos that they played, that and stuff. You know, none of it was polite. Everything was like really life or death. You know, I also liked how democratic jazz was. You know, everybody has a part to play. It's a team effort. I've always liked that. I've always tried to have that in any bands that I've had.

Geoff: 4:50

Well, I'm just going to say you gave me such support when I started in London. You were so supportive and you were so encouraging.

Jim: 4:58

Well, that's what you do. That's what people do with me.

Geoff: 5:00

Well, everybody's like that yeah that's right, but you passed it on. You passed it on. Yeah, that's right it's just a very supportive atmosphere that you create. I think that's what it is.

Jim: 5:09

Well fortunately.

Jim: 5:10

I had a lot of that, although when I was playing the double bass in Glasgow, to begin with, I was getting hell from all the other players because I was like 15 and they were all like in their 40s and I and I didn't know that you're supposed to stand in the one place between the drums and the piano I'd be wandering across the stage with the bass, you know, talking to people. They'd say, hey, you get back there, you know. And then I'd be speeding up and slowing down. I just wasn't aware of that. So I'd go home thinking what the hell have I done? You know, until you're made aware of these things, you don't do anything about it. So fewer, yeah.

Jim: 5:45

And I sort of realized maybe I've got the time thing a little better now and I've always regarded myself as being an ensemble player. You know I have to make what I do fit. Plus, there were some really good players in Glasgow at that time. There was a great piano player called Kenny Crawford who went to Australia. actually. If this guy played like Wynton Kelly, really swinging, great voicings, I used to ask him to show me voicings on the piano and I I'd try and do them on the guitar. The problem with the guitar when you've got close voicings on the piano.

Jim: 6:06

You're like this on the guitar, you know.

Jim: 6:08

So I had to kind of compromise and find what were the great notes in those chords. You know, because a three-note chord can be a fantastic chord, you know, it doesn't have to have all the information and learning how to accompany and just figuring, figuring how to be a team player, you know. Yeah, that was it.

Jim: 6:22

And I've never looked back.

Geoff: 6:24

You must have started listening to guitar players around this time as well right.

Jim: 6:27

Well, yeah, although you could only get the West Coast guitar players in those days. You couldn't get, for instance, East Coast, you couldn't get Blue Note or Riverside. You could get Contemporary Pacific jazz. So you were getting all the guys that had gone to LA to be in the studio bands, people like Barney Kessel, Tal Farlow, Mundell Lowe, all those guys.

Geoff: 6:47

Was that because of a distribution of records or something?

Jim: 6:49

There was something like that and that's another thing with these American sailors being stationed in Scotland, the local pawn shops would have Blue Note records on. These guys had got rid of some records to get some cash, you know, on the weekend pass. So I suddenly saw these fantastic covers. You know weekend pass, so I suddenly saw these fantastic covers. You know there's amazing. You know, Ready for Freddy, you know, and Wayne Shorter records, Herbie Hancock, you know. So I was getting these things for like 10 shillings or something. You know they were playable. You know, I'll never forget I bought Empyrean Isles, you know, the quartet one, One Finger Snap and all those tunes on there. I got it when it came out, the year it came out 64 I think it was, and taking it home and just like being pinned to the wall with the kind of intensity.

Geoff: 7:32

So what about learning to improvise? Did you transcribe things?

Jim: 7:36

Never transcribed in my whole life. Right, because I felt that that was cheating in a way. You know, because what I realised early on about improvising is you want to take the flavour of what you're getting from whoever's Miles or Coltrane or Cannonball or whatever, but I don't want to take their licks because then I'm going to be trapped. So how do you get the flavour? Trial and error. Being a bass player to begin with, although I was playing guitar at home, on my bass I was really figuring out the kind of geography of songs you know. There were no teachers, so the only teaching I could get, I mean, I'd bug the piano player to show me some of his voicings, which he did and I'd go back and get my wee guitar and try and figure out what they were.

Geoff: 8:13

So what's your knowledge of chord and harmony at this stage then

Jim: 8:17

I could hear it.

Jim: 8:18

I couldn't identify it in terms of you know this.

Jim: 8:20

I mean, in a sense Wes Montgomery was the same. Wes couldn't read a chord solo or something, but he could hear it. I've analysed those Wes Montgomery chord solos. I mean they're so hip. I mean guitarists to this day don't play chord solos like Wes. He really knew everything about harmony. But I think it's just it's identifying these things. I'm still trying to identify sounds I hear. I don't always recognise first time, just trying to stay on top of what. I'm still trying to identify sounds I hear. I don't always recognise first time, you know, just trying to stay on top of what I'm hearing, you know. And trial and error.

Geoff: 8:50

Do you still get surprised by things that you hear?

Jim: 8:52

Oh yeah, all the time, usually by how badly I'm playing. You know no.

Geoff: 8:56

I don't mean yourself, I mean from listening when you hear other people, do you hear? Oh, that's a harmony I don't recognise, or something like that.

Jim: 9:02

Oh yeah, especially all the chords on chords thing. You know, the minute the bass player takes another note, you're looking at a whole different thing, you know.

Geoff: 9:09

A chord is only a chord when the bass player decides which note he's playing. Really yeah, which chord that is.

Jim: 9:14

That's right yeah, but beyond all that, you know, I wasn't really thinking about sort of technical things. I mean, I did a lot of writing in my earlier days. You know, I I think I've got 120 tunes published. Trying to put your thoughts in order. You know, that's where writing comes in. It forces you to make decisions. Wayne Shorter has a great quote. He says when you improvise, you compose quickly, when you compose, you improvise slowly.

Geoff: 9:37

That's a great quote, Wonderful really profound actually.

Jim: 9:39

He came out with some great quotes like that. You know, when you're writing, you're weighing up the weight of every single note. That's right. Is that right? Should that be shorter? Should that be longer? Should that, should that tie over? And when you're improvising, you're flying through, you're not thinking anything. Yeah, and that's. I learned something that way too. But when you're improvising, you know you're going with the flow. You're thinking about something else. Rather than trying to make a wonderful invented melody, you're just trying to keep a train of thought going. You know, I'm still trying to keep that going, actually, you know sometimes it works as you get older, I mean I'm 80 this year, in a few months.

Jim: 10:12

Your perspectives change, you know, whereas you know 20, 30 years ago I really wanted to play up my tunes and I was very influenced by John Scofield in those days. Yeah, so I've got a lot of very Scofield-y type things, you know, and just going for that kind of excitement too. But then I realised at some point that's not me, you know, that's him. Now I can kind of take Schofield or leave him, especially the sound, that kind of slightly metallic, quite hard.

Jim: 10:41

That bothers me a little bit now. It didn't before. You know, know. I mean now I'm really into really good tunes and there's so many of them. You know a good tune does half the work for you. You know you play it properly. The atmosphere's right there. You know you never get old enough to know all the great tunes you know. But I mean most of my gigs now are playing standards, maybe slightly rearranged or reharmonised, something, you know, some extra harmony in it, but just because they're so great. And for me now it's about playing great tunes and nice grooves. Autumn in New York is a swing and all that kind of thing.

Geoff: 11:09

Oh, yeah, yeah, because you've always done that, haven't you?

Jim: 11:11

I have. I like the idea of playing a ballad with a double feel because it gives you a long sequence. Yeah, so you've got a lot of space.

Geoff: 11:17

You used to play some Earth Wind and Fire, didn't you?

Jim: 11:29

That's right.

Geoff: 11:30

After the Lover Has Gone, After the Love Has Gone, so you've always taken sort of very, sort of diverse tunes. And well, that was part of jazz, wasn't it? You know, I mean to take familiar material and do something differently. Yeah, absolutely So, obviously, it's well known that you play with your thumb. You play the guitar with your thumb, would you say. First mistake Because you're left-handed, aren't you?

Jim: 11:46

I am playing right-handed. That was my second mistake. When you play with your thumb, you can only play downstroke. You can play with the flesh of the thumb. You can't do it upstrokes because that's the nail and that would be a horrible clicky. The nice thing about playing with your fingers is you get a warmth. I mean, I like the idea of, uh, sounding almost vocal.

Jim: 12:06

The reason I play with my thumb is because when I started playing right handed, although I was left-handed, I remember my handwriting fell apart. I was getting hell from the teachers, Really? Mullen. What's this? What do you call this? Sorry, you know, because the left side of the brain deals with the right side of the body and vice versa. So whatever I was doing, it was spaghetti in there. You know, all the signals were being crossed.

Jim: 12:27

My mum was left-handed also, but she told me when she was at school you weren't allowed to be left-handed. They used to tie her left hand behind her back you talk about child abuse and she was forced to write with her right hand. Her handwriting never recovered. That's awful To the day she died. She died when she was 96, it was still a scrawl. She'd send me birthday cards and stuff. You know, really struggling to make out what she was writing. You know, I didn't really think about it. I was just too stupid to realise if you're left-handed you'd be playing this way. You know what it meant was. I would be holding a pick, trying to play something really hands, you know, just because I had no proper technique to hold it or anything and I just got tired of looking for it on the floor and I had no technique anyway. So I carried on with my thumb, which I had no technique, but at least I had a sort of intimate, more intimate control of where my finger went.

Geoff: 13:15

But of course the downstrokes means that there's lots of hammering and pulling in the left hand. Hammer-ons and pull-offs In the left hand, yeah all the time um.

Jim: 13:22

You can't quantify it you know no but for me it's about trying to keep up the kind of rhythmic momentum of the thing, but just try and keep it flowing. Basically, you know, yeah, but I'm stuck with it. I mean it's too late, way too late now for me to do anything about it. I tried a couple of times years ago, but it was still hopeless and I couldn't do anything. This way, I tried that too, absolutely hopeless. And then you think about it this hand is doing all the work, yeah, making all the notes, you know, making all the chords, because of the guitar. Nothing is laid out for you like, yeah, you have to make that thing happen, yeah, and you try and do that here. This hand is absolutely useless, you know. So I realized I had to be this way. I tried to pick again, you know, slowly, no, not happening. So there's a lot of Brazilian musicians in London and I went to this one guy lives, lives up in West Hampstead. His name is Gui Tavares, Guitar Virus, I call him.

Jim: 14:11

The inversions that the Brazilians use is completely different to what the North Americans are using. You know, they use a lot of things with displaced bass notes. You know, when I'm doing my dodgy Scottish Samba, he said stop. I said what he said you're letting. I said isn't that what you're supposed to do? He said, no, you're supposed to dampen them all. And also, you're using your fingers, you're using your nails. I mean, I realised right away. I mean there may be a cultural divide that's too wide for me to cross. He says first of all, there's hundreds of rhythms and they've all got names and you can superimpose any one of them at any point when you hear it the right thing to do you any point when you hear it the right thing to do.

Geoff: 14:51

You've chosen to play When Sunny Gets Blue, right, yeah, so just think about the first few chords of that and ideas that you might use. That second chord may not be present in this version.

Jim: 15:10

What is the second chord there?

Geoff: 15:12

The second chord would be just a C7 probably wouldn't it, I'll do whatever it is Right. So we're going to have one chorus, chorus of Sunny Gets Blue, within last eight years of production no mistakes. Thank you, thank you so. Thank you, terrific, wow, trying to make sense of your, your left hand and youring and your. I gave up on that a long time ago. How did it feel like to play with that?

Jim: 18:15

Yeah, I mean I've done lot of t hings with recording over backing tracks and stuff in the past and while it makes you play carefully which is not something you normally think about when you're playing you're just going for it, but you have to be careful because you have to make it fit with something that's already there.

Geoff: 18:30

So when you're playing, you're not thinking of licks, are you no?

Geoff: 18:36

What's going through your mind as you're playing.

Jim: 18:37

Well, I always felt that you know, improvising a solo is you're really trying to invent an alternative melody, yeah, and to do that there has to be a thread of continuity for a start. That's why, just sometimes getting a good opening phrase, yeah, well, you did that. Just then I noticed that it gives you a kickstart to actually continue the line. It may not be great, sometimes you get lucky and it all flows beautifully and you think, oh, I didn't mean that, but I like it. It's not an exact science, but if you can get a nice kickoff, it doesn't mean like jumping in furiously but to find something nice that creates a nice little start to it. You can continue that in order to try and keep the continuity.

Jim: 19:17

I mean, I've thought about melody a lot in my life. Melodies are essentially very simple things, hardly any really complicated melodies. They're simple but they're profound. You know, that was one of the reasons why I recorded Nessun Dorma once with my organ trio, because I just thought that melody with all these minor 9, you know it's a miracle, oh yeah.

Jim: 20:06

I mean, I always loved that. I remember when Nessun Norma was at the top of the pop charts in 1990. Right Football Italia. England got to the final. I think Gary Lineker won the Golden Boot. Pavarotti number one in the charts, you know. Everywhere you were going. You were hearing, and that's what I love about Italian opera it's so soulful, but it's melody, isn't it?

Geoff: 20:27

It's melody, Big fat melodies, and really soulful.

Jim: 20:31

you know it's packed with these big juicy melodies, you know.

Geoff: 20:35

Can we just talk briefly about funk and the sort of evolution of the British sort of funk scene which you were kind of part of. I remember coming to see you with Morrissey Mullen at the Half Moon in Putney.

Jim: 20:45

We used to do it every Tuesday for years. We made more money on that gig I think I made it in any gig Right. I we made more money on that gig than I think I made on any gig Right. I still struggle to make that kind of money now.

Jim: 20:52

Yeah, when Dick and I got together, when the Average White Band were hitting it big, I mainly knew Alan Gorey and Onni McIntyre. Alan was the main bass player and vocalist and Onnie McIntyre was the guitarist, and I knew Malcolm Duncan and Roger Ball, the two sax players, and the world was imploding around them. They were making a fortune. It was a world hit, one of those songs that just went everywhere, you know, and they all got a piece of it as well. So they all bought houses off of that one song.

Jim: 21:24

The Average White Band came out all wearing kind of white stuff and playing all their great stuff and going down a storm. And we were playing in the south to black audiences and they were going down a storm. That almost never happens in the States, you know. Anyway, they were crossing over big time and their record was slowly, you know, by the time they got from east coast to west coast, it was a hit number one album and single. You know, Pick up the Pieces, and I just realised this was the big time you know. So, Pick up the Pieces.

Geoff: 21:52

And, uh, I just realized this was the big time you know so Morrissey Mullen was this is your way of getting into that scene

Jim: 21:56

because, uh, Malcolm Duncan phoned me and said here's Dick Morrissey's number.

Jim: 22:00

You know, I think you guys should play together or something. You know, give him a call. And Dick was living about a mile away from me. I was in South Wimbledon, he was in Tooting, Tooting Beck, I think and we met in this pub over a pint of Guinness and Dick said to me he had just left this band, if it's one of these rock bands with a horn section, you know. He said to me, man, I'll tell you what I'd like to do. You know those CTI albums with, like Stanley Turrentine and George Benson? And I said, yeah, yeah, it's lovely. And The Crusaders, yeah, that kind of music you can still play kind of bebop over it, but you've got a backbeat, so it takes it away from the splangolang thing.

Jim: 22:41

Anyway, he came round to where I was staying in this little flat that's now been demolished, and I had no money and I didn't sign on, which was really stupid, because they tried to get me for tax a couple of years later. I actually survived by selling my priceless record collection and just buying, you know, surviving on cheese sandwiches and a couple of pints of beer up at the. But what I did in that period I didn't play any gigs for almost two years. There was a pub in Wimbledon up on the South Common called the Hand in Hand and there was a little Irish Wimbledon up on the South Common called the Hand in Hand and there was a little Irish band played in there every Wednesday or Thursday playing jigs and reels. So I got my acoustic guitar, which I still had, and went up and learned all those tunes and played with them.

Jim: 23:44

It was great because it kept my stuff, you know.

Geoff: 23:47

So did you know that stuff from being in Scotland?

Jim: 23:49

No, I kind of related to it. I used to play folk music as a kid Right and things like you know that stuff from being in Scotland. No, I kind of related to it. I used to play folk music as a kid Right and things like you know. That's amazing.

Jim: 24:15

Whoa, you know those tunes. You know that's jazz, isn't it? Well, it's jazz, and strict time music as well. You know, you can't fluff it up rhythmically, You've got to be right on it. I mean, nothing was written down in those days. They only survived because they were great and people liked them. You know, in a way that's a good test for all music really. It only survives if people like it and it's good, it's strong. That's why standards I often think about.

Jim: 24:37

Nobody knows that most of them are show tunes. Nobody remembers the shows. You only have to look in the Real Book to see where the show was. Who remembers the show that I Got Rhythm came from All of those things. Playing these kind of gigs got you back into playing and started yeah, kept me picked you out of that because I wouldn't have been playing otherwise. You know, they've been just languishing you know right.

Geoff: 24:58

And then what about Morrissey Mullen? How did that? Uh, what were your first steps into, into breaking out with mosswick Morrissey Mullen?

Jim: 25:04

I got together. I had a few tunes. First of all, Malcolm Duncan invited us out to the States to record an album in New York with them, because they were riding so high. Atlantic Records was looking to do anything they wanted because they had a big hit on their hands, you know, and they were very, very focused. They worked really hard in the studio. They really put the jigsaw puzzle together very carefully. It all worked great. Plus, they had Arif Mardin producing them, one of the great producers you know.

Geoff: 25:32

So you went out to America and you did the first Morrissey Mullen album with the Average White Band.

Jim: 25:35

That's right.

Jim: 25:37

What was originally supposed to happen was it was meant to be Steve Gadd, Richard Tee and who's the six-string bass player, Anthony Jackson. Aye, it was meant to be them. Dick and I were like playing with our heroes, you know, bricking it, you know. So we had a rehearsal at Molly Duncan's basement before we went into the studio I'd scribbled out some chord parts and they made it so easy for us because they had a band sound. You know they still had Steve Ferrone at that time, you know. Tried the tunes out with them. It sounded great. We thought I wish we were doing it with you. And he says, yeah, so. And he said, yeah, so do we. So we actually cancelled Steve Gad, Richard Tee and Anthony Jackson and did it with the Average White Band because we were really worried, just in order to feel comfortable, you know, not to be shitting it. You know we chickened out, probably the only chance that I got to play with these guys, but so we did it with them.

Jim: 26:26

We did a recording on a four track or something at Molly's studio and I took it away with me and I kind of timed everything and then edited it down to manageable, you know, because when you've got blowing instrumental things. It can be anything between five and ten minutes. So I got it down to about five, six minutes kind of thing, you know and did a lot of prep and then went into the studio Atlantic Studios Gene Paul the engineer, Les Paul's son, Arif Mardin was there, Ahmet Ertegun, all the head honchos and we did it and they were like, hey, man, we've got to do business with you guys. So doing the talk and the talk, you know. Unfortunately, reality kicked in and although it came out and it got great reviews in Cashbox and Billboard, they put it on a subsidiary label called Embryo and the Embryo label was thrown down the toilet within about six months. So our career also went down the toilet at that point

Geoff: 27:20

But that was the start of Morrissey Mullen right, that was, that was how you.

Geoff: 27:23

you had something to build.

Jim: 27:24

Well, Dick said to me look, I'm going back to London because he had already had three or four kids. You know, were you thinking about moving there? I was thinking of, yeah, right, but what decided it for me? Against it for me was my wife, not Zoe, but my first wife, Lorna, who was in the rag trade. She was getting offered all the work. So that's when I decided I came back and Dick said let's do some gigs. So we got various rhythm sections. Some of them weren't hopeless Because at that time there weren't a lot of drummers who did all the styles.

Jim: 27:57

You hardly had a jazz drummer who could funk it up. So we tried that and found out it wasn't going to be straightforward. But then we did get good guys and ended up with really good guys like Neil Wilkinson, Pete Jacobson, people like that. The only gig we could get to begin with was at the Bull's Head in Barnes, because Dick was already well-known there. He'd played there since he was a boy, you know, and all the gazers with the pints and the sort of folded arms and all sorts of stuff. They weren't happy about this at all, you know, because they knew Dick was the Boy Wonder he was called actually, you know, it's a great beb beep-ops, you know, fiery beep-ops there. So we were getting a lot of flack, you know. But then over the next I think we were doing one a month or two a month there over the next few months it all started changing. Suddenly the ones who had their arms folded unfolded their arms, you know, and started sort of getting something out of it.

Jim: 28:46

And then a lot of younger people came along and that was the key, because suddenly we're getting real mixed crowds. Because you know, the jazz thing was always for old guys, yeah, leather patches on the blazers and stuff, you know. Now it was everybody, young, young white kids, old, black people, you know real mix, you know. Yeah, we had that. It got going. So we're doing six, seven nights a week up and down the country, you know, not making a fortune but making quite nice money. You know that on for 15 years. Then Dick's health started deteriorating. He never looked after himself and that was a sad end, unfortunately.

Geoff: 29:18

Very sad, but that was the beginning of the Brit funk. in some ways, wasn't it? That was what you were doing there, but you've always been into that music and you've kind of carried it on, haven't you? As the years went on

Jim: 29:30

Not so much now, actually, Haven't you?

Jim: 29:31

As the years went on? Not so much now actually. I mean, I love that music, but I did find after a while that it's formulaic. I quite like the idea of music not being formulaic.

Geoff: 29:41

Which brings you back to standards, of course, doesn't it? The organ trio, yeah.

Jim: 29:44

Depending on who you're playing with. The sky's the limit. And I get to play with good guys and the sky is the limit. So it's exciting for me, whereas the funk thing it's a formula, you know, and I remember reading something that John Schofield said. He says I just heard one backbeat too many, although he's still doing a lot of that because he has to.

Geoff: 30:09

I've got some questions to finish off, but just before that I just want to ask you about song quotes in solos.

Jim: 30:15

That was Dick got me into that. I mean not deliberately, he used to do it. I mean, Dick was amazing. You know we'd be playing, I had no concept of quoting. You know We'd be playing away and Dick would suddenly quote some really profound classical. You know, things like Rachmaninoff, that kind of thing he'd quote, and a rhythm changes or something he would also do, that thing that Bird did, which was which he quoted in What is This Thing Called Love? But the only thing is you have to change the last note. Why do you do that? He said because it lightens the mood. He said he says because jazz can be a tough math test for a lot of people. All these notes flying around.

Jim: 31:06

Sometimes you throw in a quote, especially one that they'll all recognise, and it cracks the enamel. People start smiling. They often don't know what it is, but they recognise it. So it made me aware of that. Now, unfortunately, it's a virus. It's very hard to get rid of once you get it. So I find myself doing it more than I should be actually these days Right. Should be actually these days Right right.

Geoff: 31:26

Sometimes they just pop out without you even thinking about it, right?

Jim: 31:29

Well, I mean, sometimes your natural phrasing can just be like something else. Yeah, yeah, so that can happen. It is a virus. That's great when there are people, people like all the musicians that are going now, like Bill Le Sage. He could do a whole solo that was just a string of quotes from beginning to end.

Geoff: 31:47

Okay, I've got some questions I ask everybody. Some of them will be easy to answer, some of them may not. So the first question is what's your favourite album?

Jim: 31:56

I don't think I can have the luxury of a favourite album. Actually, there's a lot of things that I keep going back to Here's to Life. You know the Shirley Horn thing. I think that's a masterpiece, but also Coltrane Ballads. There's a Kenny Burrell, John Coltrane album. I don't know whether you know that one, whether you do Freight Train. Kenny Burrell matches Coltrane in that album and he really Kenny Burrell was great. I found out later that Rudy Van Gelder got every guitarist that he recorded to use this amp that he had in the studio. So Kenny Burrell, Grant Green and all the other guys, they've all used that amp and the sound that Kenny Burrell gets out of this amp amazing, and I was talking to Peter Bernstein about that. He loves that record as well and he really checked that sound out because his sound is quite similar to that. Actually A wonderful rich, fat sound.

Geoff: 32:41

But that doesn't come from the amp. Surely that's in your fingers.

Jim: 32:44

It's a combination. The amp helps If you've got an amp that's sensitive to what you're trying to do.

Geoff: 32:50

There's another something that pops into my mind is you remember you did an album with me Pop Bop, yes which was my quartet album of playing pop tunes as swingy tunes, right, you turned up to the studio with just the guitar, right, and you plugged straight into the soundboard and that was you.

Geoff: 33:06

I'll never forget that

Jim: 33:08

When I was with Brian Auger in the early 70s, he had a deal with an Italian amplification company called Davely and they got all this gear. And he got all this gear for me, you know, effects and pedals and stuff. And there was, there was this thing. It was on four legs, it was like something out of Thunderbirds Are Go, I tell you, and it was a four octave divctave divider. Can you imagine what four octaves sound like together? You know the one you're playing, one above, one below and one below that, right down the bottom end of the piano you play a Charlie Parker tune, the four octaves, it's like the Doomsday Machine. And then the other half of it was all repeat echo, where you could play da-ba, play with yourself all night. And there was also instrumental tone things you could choose. You get bassoon, bass clarinet.

Jim: 33:54

So for about a year I was a sound effects salesman. I call them talent boosters. Well, anyway, it broke down one night and I was just left with the guitar and the amp and it sounded like and that's when I realized no man, you gotta get a good sound before any, it's through any pedal. In fact, I stopped all the pedals after that. Yeah, you know, no more pedals. If you get a good sound, you can use it for everything you know. Yeah, I mean, George Benson doesn't change his sound, for you know, Eric Gale didn't he always had that great sound and he was playing a big guitar like an L5 or something I

Geoff: 34:26

I mean I can hear it in here.

Geoff: 34:27

You've got an arched top on your lap here and it's the sound that's coming off of it.

Jim: 34:32

Absolutely. You can't duplicate that.

Geoff: 34:34

It's in your fingers, isn't it?

Jim: 34:36

Yeah, and on a solid you can't quite get that.

Geoff: 34:39

So question number two, is there a favourite musician, alive or dead, that you would like to play with or would like to play

Geoff: 34:47

with or would have like to have played with

Jim: 34:49

How many have you got I? Mean, yeah, loads, just briefly, One or two I'd like to play with. I mean I'd love to have played with Wynton Kelly, some of the New York guys I'm a big fan of Larry Golding's on piano and organ. I'd love to have done a session with Coltrane or something, just to hear or something just to hear just the way he played the melody Donny Hathaway.

Jim: 35:08

I'd love to have played with Donny Hathaway. He's my. In fact, I can hardly bear to play his records because they're so moving, you know, and it's overwhelming it is incredible song.

Jim: 35:17

And then we heard Stevie in the Park in the summer.

Jim: 35:20

He was incredible. He's in his 70s now. You know, one overjoyed Da-da-dee, da-da-dee, da-da-dee, da-da-da. He did that and he didn't change the key. And it changes, it goes up a tone at the end. And the park was packed with Stevie Wonder fans. I'm glad.

Geoff: 35:37

That's just across the road from here where we are now, That's our garden. Next question is there a highlight of your career?

Jim: 35:45

A few highlights. I guess, yeah, Just doing festivals with my own group. I mean, I've had various groups over the years and I've still got my organ trio with Mike Gorman and Tristan Mayo, but when I had my quartet with Gareth Williams, Mick Hutton and Gary Husband, I was very proud of that band and we did a few festivals. I found that very exciting. You know they were great.

Geoff: 36:07

What was the last concert you attended

Jim: 36:10

Stevie

Jim: 36:10

I guess Stevie yeah, yeah, that was it. I'm not a good listener, actually, you know. I find you know going to clubs, but a lot of the time there's a lot of distraction going on and people talking. I used to get into trouble because I used to go around Ronnie's and say, excuse me, can you keep it down? People are listening and you go. Who do you think you are? Some guy would stand up and be bigger than me. It's hard to be careful and you're a big guy.

Geoff: 36:33

Yeah, they were bigger. Okay, next question what would you say is your musical weakness?

Jim: 36:40

I'm a very poor reader. I'm not a reader, never been a good reader. I think I may have a slight kind of dyslexic problem. It just made no sense to me at all. I tried and tried and tried and I wrote parts out, you know.

Geoff: 36:52

I've seen your parts before.

Jim: 36:53

Yeah, yeah yeah, you can tell. You can tell it was. Yeah, it was. Just when you start off wrong, it's very hard to fix it. Yeah, sure, yeah, and never having had tuition, really you know, yeah, but then if I'd had tuition maybe it would have stopped me doing what I've been doing, you know, yeah, I'm sure. Yeah, it's the swings and roundabouts. I mean, learning things about music doesn't make you less creative.

Jim: 37:15

No, it's not but just having to do. I mean, for instance, if I'd had to go to guitar lessons, he would have made me play this way, yeah, and I think I would become so despondent I would have probably quit, right, you know, and I wouldn't be doing it. You know, I'm really glad that I didn't quit because I like playing music. You know, I hope to continue doing it for a while. My bank manager insists.

Geoff: 37:36

Do you ever get nervous on stage?

Jim: 37:37

Oh, yeah, really, 15 minutes before one stage. Yeah, always, every time, every time, every time, because it's just that thing about wanting to be ready. I'm not one of those guys that practices furiously before going on a gig. Interesting, Just staying in touch with the instrument, but also before you get started, because there's a lot of things that can go wrong. I mean physical things like the amp's not working or there's a dodgy lead and all that stuff. Once you get past the first couple of minutes, it's all right, but just that 15 minutes before and getting in and getting everything sorted.

Geoff: 38:06

If you're playing a concert and there's some great musicians in the audience, does that affect your performance in any way?

Jim: 38:12

No, it doesn't at all. Sometimes it inspires me, you know. I mean the first time, Dick and I got that gig in New York at Mikell's, which was the sort of 606 of New York at that time, you know, we were filling in for Dave Sandborn or something you know, because these guys would take Mikell's and then they got a tour. They'd say you can't do it, we'll get somebody else. No, we did that for a week and then he said, yeah, do next week too.

Jim: 38:35

We ended up doing six weeks and in that time we had Don Grolnick came and played with us. The Brecker brothers came down every night for a week and sat in. So suddenly we thought we've got to raise your game here. We must be doing something right that we even want to come and play with us. So everybody was really nice. They were really open New Yorkers. When I came to London it was like who are you? I still feel that a little bit. In New York the old people play with the young people. I mean Peter Bernstein plays with George Coleman, who's 88 or something. He played with Jimmy Cobb's band.

Jim: 39:06

He played with a lot of the older guys and he calls them the elders. They have a respect for these guys. Over here they don't. That's why people like me and Henry Lowther and Stan Saltzman don't work. We've been scored off all the lists I heard you were dead and all that stuff.

Geoff: 39:21

I still respect you.

Jim: 39:22

Well, thank you, sir, but I think it's a mistake to write off. Yeah, it totally is I think the generations have different things to bring to the table. Yeah, I totally agree. You see nice things about me, and Dave O'Higgins does as well. There must have been something I did that was worthwhile.

Geoff: 39:36

Yeah, yeah, a few more questions not music related, starting with what's your favourite sandwich.

Jim: 39:47

I'm not a big sandwich guy, actually. Toast and marmalade or something. You know that's good, great.

Geoff: 39:51

What's your favourite movie?

Jim: 39:53

Some Like it Hot. Oh, that's a good one. Yeah, I got a lot of music from that film actually.

Geoff: 40:01

No, my favourite one is Stairway to the Stars. Is that in that movie?

Jim: 40:10

Yeah, yeah, yeah. In the scene where Tony Curtis is pretending to be the head of Shell Oil, yeah, and he lures Marilyn Monroe onto the yacht whose skipper is being tangoed danced, and he's doing the Cary Grant voice as well. She loves it. Apparently. Cary Grant said nobody talks like that. Nobody talks like that. Yeah, anyway, he takes her onto the boat. She's very impressed and he doesn't know his way around, so he takes her into the room covered by mistake. He goes oh, I forget where we are. And then he finds the lounge, takes her in and sits her down, pours the champagne, turns down the lighting and puts on the music.

Jim: 40:42

And it was this song. It was a big hit for Tommy Dorsey, like 100 years ago, you know, and I just thought it was one of those moments when the music and the scene, everything was all really connected, you know. And it's a very romantic song actually, you know, although I always introduce it, it's because I'm getting old, now I struggle on the stairs. I introduce it as stairlift. Yeah, it's a wonderful song, you know. It's a great movie yeah, it's a wonderful song.

Jim: 41:08

Yeah, it's a wonderful. It's a great movie. It's a wonderful movie. Yeah, I mean, it's not a wasted word, it's the funniest script of all time. I still look at the cast. Tony Curtis, Jack Lemon and Marilyn Monroe were never better. Yeah, anyway, it's a great film.

Jim: 41:19

I'll never get tired of that one

Geoff: 41:20

Amazing, okay, what about a favorite venue to play in.

Jim: 41:24

The next one!

Geoff: 41:25

The next one! What about a favourite country or city? You like to go to

Jim: 41:32

Italia.

Jim: 41:33

Of course. Yeah, we love Italy. We've got a friend who lives in Tuscany and just outside Florence and he has a. this guy's a retired civil engineer, a jazz guitar nut as well, and he's got these converted villas on the hills overlooking Florence, gorgeous, something out of a movie, you know. And then we did some workshops. It was like three or four days in this converted farmhouse not very far from Florence, in the hills. Zoe came as well. It was at our anniversary, I think, wasn't it? Yeah, so we made a little holiday of it, we stayed on, we had a great time, didn't we Cool?

Geoff: 42:06

So the last question. This is the most important one.

Jim: 42:11

Do you still love your wife?

Geoff: 42:14

That's not the question. I already know the answer no you know the answer? Yeah, we'll get a divorce. The last question is what's your favourite chord? Come on, you've got your guitar on your lap. I don't have one. You don't have one. He likes passing chords. There you go.

Jim: 42:32

It's a 13 sharp nine.

Geoff: 42:36

It's got that lovely diagonal shape on the guitar. Yeah, anything that's easy to play on the guitar in the shape is great, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, do you tend to use open strings inside your chords very much?

Announcement: 42:46

Anything that's easy to play on the guitar in the shape is great, isn't it?

Geoff: 42:48

Yeah, yeah, do you tend to use open strings inside your chords very much?

Jim: 42:51

Sometimes. Generally try to avoid it because you never know what's going to happen. You leave a string open and it can go yeah and scream at it. So basically I try and cover everything with my fingers if I can.

Geoff: 43:02

Well, I think that'll wrap it up nicely. Thanks so much for your time, Jim.

Jim: 43:05

I hope there's something worth listening to.

Geoff: 43:06

Oh my, God, oh my God, I've had a ball. I could talk to you all day.

Jim: 43:09

Well, you're welcome. Any time you're in the neighbourhood, give us a shout, come round for a cup of tea. I will do that for sure. Yeah, Good to see you again, Geoff.

Announcement: 43:21

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