Geoff: 0:01

Hello, podcasts. Hope you're doing well today. I'm going today to see a great friend of mine. His name is Martin Shaw. He's a fantastic trumpet player. And he also plays piano. He's done loads and loads of great things. He played with Jamiroquai, John Dankworth, and uh BBC Big Band, loads of great things like that. So we're gonna talk a little bit about uh jazz standards. I know what his favorite standard is already, but I'm not gonna say, I'm gonna let him tell you because he calls it on every gig that we do together. Um so we're playing gig tonight together, so I thought I'd catch up with him before the concert, and um here comes the interview.

Announcement: 0:57

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Martin: 1:06

It's like being on the radio.

Geoff: 1:09

Hi Martin.

Martin: 1:10

Hi, Geoff. How's it going? How are you today? I'm very well, thank you very much.

Geoff: 1:14

Do you want to tell everyone a little bit about yourself?

Martin: 1:17

So I grew up into a family of musicians. Both my parents were great piano players. Mom was uh classically trained, couldn't really improvise, but was a really great reader. And my dad was the opposite. He was a jazz player, could read chords, but couldn't really read music as such. Wow, okay. So I kind of got the best of both worlds. So you started on the piano, did you? I did, yeah. I started on piano when I was uh nine, and then a couple of years later I took up trumpet at school basically.

Geoff: 1:47

So you started with classical piano?

Martin: 1:49

Uh yes, I did actually, yeah. But it was a mixture because my dad used to show me a couple of nice tasty chords.

Geoff: 1:55

So you started jazz really young then?

Martin: 1:57

I did basically, yeah. I was improvising by the time I was twelve, and my brother is a great piano player too, and he used to kind of play me the the more modern stuff, like Herbie Hancock Chick Corea, Bill Evans type stuff. And my dad always had uh Oscar Peterson, Art Tatum, Fats Waller, all those kind of players.

Geoff: 2:15

So they were your first influences, the piano players. Absolutely, yeah, without question. So when did you discover the trumpet then?

Martin: 2:21

Well I started at eleven, it was one of those mad decisions at school. They asked uh in assembly in the morning whether anyone that could already read music fancied playing a brass instrument. So uh I remember it to this day. I came to the corridor at uh break time, and uh you could either go left to the tuck shop, which I normally did, or right to this room where they said to go to try some instruments out. Right. And I stopped in my tracks and I thought, well, shall I go and get my crisps and chocolate or shall I go and have a have a you know have a look and check out what's going on with these instruments? And I, I did, I decided to go go for the the brass room. Fantastic, yeah. And then they gave me uh a French horn, which I just felt a bit heavy and awkward for me personally. They gave me a trombone I couldn't really feel it at all or reach, you know, and it just didn't feel right. Yeah. But then they gave me a trumpet and I just I put it to my face and I played like a really nice middle G. And they just said, Oh well, there you are, then that's it. Yeah, I just had regular uh peri lessons at school. But I'd I started with um a a friend of mine, but within a few months I'd sort of, you know, uh steamed ahead because uh well, because of my background and the fact that I played piano already, so I ended up having one-to-one lessons with the peripatetic teacher, Stephen Reed, his name was. He was a French horn player, but lovely man. And so he set me set me going. I mean, I when I say classical, I did um study the classical route, but all the time my dad was getting me to improvise and he played piano for me at home, for instance. He'd teach me the old tunes like Sweet Georgia Brown and Avalon, those kind of things.

Geoff: 4:07

So you didn't you didn't think about being a prof um a professional piano player at all?

Martin: 4:11

Well, to be honest, uh up until about the age of 15, I guess, uh I wasn't sure which way I'd go. I I practiced piano hard when I was a kid. And you still play piano, don't you? I still play piano, yeah. I don't really play gigs professionally as such, but I do play a lot for my students, for instance. And I play at home a fair bit as well.

Geoff: 4:31

So did you start um playing in big bands quite early on too?

Martin: 4:35

Yeah, um, because a lot of my contemporaries started in the brass band uh tradition, but with me, luckily, I'm from a uh town called Walsall near Birmingham. Right, as I'm sure you've sussed already. And um there was a great band called the Walsall Youth Jazz Orchestra, run by a guy called John Hughes, fabulous guy. A real sort of uh well he he just led the band with such a plomb, you know, and he was so keen and he got some great charts in, and the standard was really good. Right. So I joined that, I think I was literally 13, a couple of years in. And um I was playing next to uh a great jazz trumpet player who lives up north now called Richard Isles. That's the first time I'd ever heard you know a proper jazz trumpet player in the flesh. And uh, you know, the the lead player was a girl called Kay Henderson who was absolutely fabulous. That's where I met Julian Argüelles, and we had a little quintet together, it was a spin-off of the big band.

Geoff: 5:33

Okay.

Martin: 5:33

So I was doing a lot of jazz from early on. Right. And like I said before, that was all basically what um uh my story goes, if at home this is, if mum or dad weren't practicing, because they they used to practice hard, you know. But basically, if if they weren't practicing the piano, then there would be jazz on.

Geoff: 5:52

Were you into transcribing and writing stuff down, or how did you how did you learn to improvise?

Martin: 5:57

I did transcribe, but I didn't really write it down. I used to just learn.

Geoff: 6:02

Okay. Uh just probably a better way to do it, I guess.

Martin: 6:04

Well I found it more natural when I was young for sure. But I was very lucky because my dad, once he'd sort of realised that he thought I was gonna be a player, he knew that it would be really handy to have good uh oral facility. So he used to give me little sort of oral tests before school every morning.

Geoff: 6:24

Whoa.

Martin: 6:24

But he made it fun, it was like a game. Right. He'd get me to guess notes and then guess intervals. Yeah. And in fact, to this day I actually teach using that that method as well. So I think it's really handy.

Geoff: 6:36

Nice. Useful to be able to do, you know. Right. So you'll, you'll play an interval and you have to guess which what the interval is.

Martin: 6:42

Yeah, uh first of all, I play it and get them to uh to play the bottom note, then the top note, and then let me know the interval, tell them the notes, you know.

Geoff: 6:50

Because I know people learn intervals by you know tunes, don't they? Maria. Indeed, yeah, that's true, yeah.

Martin: 6:56

That's good as well. I mean it's all valid as long as you get to know the sound of it, and eventually you just recognise it. So so then when did you come to London then? What what was what happened next? I came to London in 1985. I got into the Royal Academy.

Geoff: 7:09

Oh.

Martin: 7:10

So I went there for three years, which was great. And luckily the first year I was there uh was the first year that they started introducing some kind of jazz tuition as well. Right. It was Graham Collier, actually. I remember. It wasn't a uh a jazz course as such, but there was a big band, which was nice, and a couple of little jazz history lessons here and there. And because of that, I think So you were doing the straight course or the or the Yeah, I was doing the straight course, yeah, literally, a three-year degree in in uh in music. Okay. But also, just quickly, I I managed to wangle second study jazz trumpet lessons with Henry Lowther. Oh, nice. Which was amazing, really lovely, lovely man, you know. Yeah, he was my mentor for it. It's amazing, isn't he? I actually went to Berkeley for a five-week summer school between the academy uh and the Guild hall, actually. So I did the postgrad jazz and studio music, I think it was called at the Guild hall. So yeah, I did four full years plus a little bit.

Geoff: 8:09

And how was your Berkeley experience? How did you...

Martin: 8:11

oh it was good fun? I mean th they actually uh put a lot of emphasis on oral ability, they used the the, the solfège scale method, which they taught me. I, I hadn't done it before, so I found that quite taxing actually. But it was great, really good fun. And I had lessons with uh a guy called Lou Mucci, who used to be in Dizzy Gillespie's band. Wow, wonderful. And then there was a guy called Wayne Nauss who did uh Buddy Rich's big band and all that kind of stuff. But yeah, it was great fun, great experience.

Geoff: 8:41

Fantastic. Would you say you use licks, you know, as part of your playing, or do you not think about that?

Martin: 8:46

I certainly have uh a few licks which I use which have become part of my vocabulary. But quite honestly, I never really practiced licks uh as a kid. I kind of relied on just listening because I really did listen so much to lots of really top quality jazz, and I think that's super important. And also it was m it was mainly piano players for a good few years. Oh, right, interesting. So the licks didn't really translate as such, but obviously when you're listening to all those people I mentioned before, especially Oscar, I mean, time, I think I learnt a lot about jazz time from Oscar. I mean it's flawless, I think. Beautiful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then Chick, say Chick Corea is a very percussive player, but lovely lines as well. So yeah, I I think it went in. But then one oh I guess I was about fourteen, and my dad used to have this residency, and this new guitarist joined the band. And when he found out I was a trumpet player, bless him, he made up a little cassette tape showing my age there uh of Clifford Brown. Right. He basically said to my dad, Oh, if he's a trumpet player, he's got to listen to Clifford Brown. Yeah. And that was it, really. That was uh my starting point.

Geoff: 9:56

And you you teach, you've done a lot more teaching of late, haven't you? Because uh I know you've recently been teaching at the Purcell School, haven't you?

Martin: 10:02

That's right, yes. I mean I've taught I've been on the books at the um Royal College actually for many, many years. I taught at the Birmingham Conservatoire for quite a few years. Right. Do you enjoy teaching? I do actually, yeah, I do enjoy it. And as you rightly say, last year I started uh at the Purcell School of Music. Mm-hmm. Uh especially like secondary school, you know.

Geoff: 10:24

I imagine that standard is pretty high there, isn't it?

Martin: 10:26

It really is, actually. I was I was quite surprised, shocked even, in a nice way, you know.

Geoff: 10:31

When you've got really advanced students, do you ever find it a a challenge to find things to do with them?

Martin: 10:36

Yeah, absolutely. Well, especially with children, but most of us I think you'll agree. The it w when you get to a well when you've been doing it for 30 odd years, yeah, you get this sort of uh experience behind you. And there's just certain things you find out only by doing it for that long. Yeah. Certain the way you phrase certain things, you know, and your sound and way of approaching playing, I think, just gets much more mature as you get older. But you can't you just can't play like that when you're when you're a kid. Yeah. And you know, uh kids all quite often play too many notes when you know they could have said a very similar thing with with with fewer, just little things like that, I think.

Geoff: 11:19

So another thing I wanted to ask you about is playing in big bands. Do you like playing in a section?

Martin: 11:24

I do, I love it, absolutely. But I always tend to play fourth trumpet now, which is kind of the jazz chair these days. I'm basically booked because I can improvise. I certainly wouldn't ever sit on lead because it's a bit scary and I can't really do it very well. I'm sure you could. Well, actually, no, honestly, Geoff, I really couldn't, but uh nice of you to think I might be able to. No, it's it's a range and and style. Well, not even style. Obviously, I could hear stylistically how it would need to go, but range wise, I'm just I haven't got the setup for that kind of playing at all. So playing fourth trumpet, that means you're following the leader, right? Exactly. That's what I was gonna say, yeah. So really you in an ideal world you listen hard to your lead trumpet player and you try and phrase like he does or she does, you know. For instance, I'll do the BBC Big Band, which is always a fabulous band. Yeah. And uh someone like Mike Lovett springs to mind because he plays lead with the band and he phrases so beautifully and he kind of he he sits back on the beat, which I kind of do naturally, so I find it very easy to phrase with someone like Mike. But if a uh a a different kind of player that maybe plays towards the top, top end of the beat comes in, then I just adjust. Uh but you you find uh over the years you just learn to do that naturally, yeah.

Geoff: 12:37

Yeah. So let's talk about jazz standards. I think I know the answer to this question, but uh do you have a favourite jazz standard?

Martin: 12:52

I do actually, Geoff. And I'm telling you, well, you've played it with me for about uh a thousand times by now, I think. It's actually. My Romance, okay. And I'll tell you for why. It came from uh I'm a huge fan of Bob Mintzer. I just love the way he phrases and improvises. He's just a fabulous musician and writer. And I've got most of his big band albums. Okay. He's a great, great arranger as well, isn't he? Oh, absolutely, yeah, beautiful. I love the way voices for horns and just amazing musician. Yeah. And his work with the Yellow Jackets, of course. But uh it's just a one-off uh well, almost like a throwaway track. I believe it's on Spectrum, but I'm not hundred percent sure. But it's on one of the late eighties big big band albums, but it but he plays a quartet version of My Romance, right? And it was just so lovely. It's one of those tracks you listen to and just put it on repeat and listen about five or six times. Was that the first version you knew of that tune? Yeah, it was actually. Yeah, I hadn't played it before. But this is years and years ago. Right. Like uh probably early nineties, I guess. Yeah. But it just it just struck me so hard, you know, it struck a chord with me. Yeah, and I just loved it. I just listened over and over again, and within you know, five or six times I'd I'd got the melody, and I just played it from from then on and ever since.

Geoff: 14:10

My Romance is actually in Quartet Volume One. So Quartet One contains all the essentials. You own this one, right?

Martin: 14:16

Yeah, I do actually, yeah. I must admit, Geoff, I've I've been using them uh uh a lot at the Purcell School. They're a great vehicle to teach. That's a good thing.

Geoff: 14:24

That's a good thing, yeah. Uh Rogers and Hart, isn't it? Um, that's right, yes, right. Rogers and Hart. Yeah. I say to students, learn all those ones first. The first hundred and fifty are the essentials, you know, All The Things You Are and Stella By Starlight and Blues, Rhythmn Changes, and all those things. Makes good sense. Have you found that you've used any particular other tunes from from this? Well, perhaps?

Martin: 14:43

To be honest, I I quite often leave it to the students to tell me what they want to learn. But I've I mean I've been through, you know, I've used Autumn Leaves, I've used uh All The Things You Are. Yeah. I've I used um All Blues for a few weeks. Uh, I used Emily the other day, actually. Nice. Which is a lovely tune. But uh yeah, that was I mean it's always handy. And one thing I love about it, I must admit, is how versatile it is. Yeah. The fact that you can change key, yeah, you know, easily. Yeah. You can um uh add a sax player so they can at least listen to how a pro would, you know, approach the sequence. Yeah, oh good. And you can change the time as well, which is a really good thing.

Geoff: 15:23

Yeah. Do you want to get your horn out and then we'll give you a minute to warm up and then um I know trumpet is a particularly tiring instrument. But do you have specific things for for warming up?

Martin: 15:32

Um I do. I must admit I warmed up uh this afternoon with in fact I taught today as well. I had a student come round at midday for a couple of hours. So I, I warmed up at about eleven o'clock.

Geoff: 15:42

Okay. And again, it varies on So you just have to do that once a day and then you're okay, you're okay for the rest of the day.

Martin: 15:47

Basically, yes, that's right, yeah.

Geoff: 15:49

That's handy.

Martin: 15:49

But that always uh always kind of bemuses me as well, really. Because you can literally warm up in the morning and then play a little and then leave it for like seven hours, eight hours, and it's still there. Fresh for for the gig in the evening. Oh, I wish it did, you know. I still don't know the answer to that.

Geoff: 16:07

So you warm up at midnight, then you surely be ready for breakfast.

Martin: 16:10

Well, you know what? It's it's a lovely idea, but it just doesn't for some reason it doesn't work like that. Wow, wow. No, and again, you know, we're all different. I think all trumpet players have different ways of warming up. Some guys, particularly when they're busy, uh, hardly need to warm up at all. I've noticed that the lead guys tend to somehow warm up a bit less. But again, a lot of it might be psychological. I've always felt the need to cover the whole range of the instrument for 10 or 15 minutes, really, a week. Well, personally, I mean I I just do that, I think it's a Herbert Clark exercise. Etc. etc.

Geoff: 17:01

Nice bit of chromatics there, yeah. Yeah. So that's colorful. That does it for me. Lots of fingering also.

Martin: 17:06

Yeah, it keeps your fingers going and it gently gets your chops working as well. I do find you know, if they're particularly bruised from the day before, I might warm up on flugelhorn instead of trumpet. Uh again, that's not everybody's thing.

Geoff: 17:19

Is it true that flugel horn is slightly easier to play than the trumpet?

Martin: 17:22

I wouldn't say easier, just different, really. I, I find it gentler. To be honest, theoretically, it should be harder because the mouthpiece is deeper, so you haven't got that kind of back pressure going on like you have on trumpets. But I've always found it uh to be advantageous to have a deep mouthpiece because when you articulate, you've got more room, you know, you can articulate uh in a stronger way.

Geoff: 17:48

Here we go. How was that? How did that feel?

Martin: 19:57

That felt nice, actually, yeah, yeah. I mean uh I've worked a lot with the guys, as you well know anyway, but I mean that's basically my choice rhythm section to be honest.

Geoff: 20:06

Stepping into a warm bath, is it? Basically, yeah.

Martin: 20:09

It's fabulous, you know. I love the way you all uh swing. Seb, obviously beautiful, and Graham, fabulous voicings.

Geoff: 20:17

So what were you thinking about when you were playing?

Martin: 20:19

Harmony has always been my my kind of first love in terms of music theory, if you like. I guess I'm just listening to the the way the sequence moves from chord to chord. I I have played this tune an awful lot, so I know it very well. Whilst I I do try and listen to the rhythm section while I'm playing, I'm trying to find nice melodies to weave uh through the sequence. Yeah. I'm always thinking forwards in a kind of horizontal way. Yeah.

Geoff: 20:48

But there's a lot of chords in this. Now, are you thinking each chord or are you thinking across many chords?

Martin: 20:53

With a tune like this. I certainly don't really think of every every chord individually. I think through the sequence. I I read or s or hear the sequence as a whole. But I'm thinking at least two or three chords ahead. When I teach, actually, I make a point of getting my students to really know their guide tones. The third and the seventh, I really do think it's nice to at least be able to land on them. Or it it's really important to uh when the harmony changes, to land on a nice note that spells the chord out.

Geoff: 21:25

That's a really good point.

Martin: 21:26

Yeah, and you don't have to play that way, but it's nice to be able to do it. Yeah.

Geoff: 21:30

So you you were talking about licks early on, you know, you've got your trumpet in your hand.

Martin: 21:34

So if I'm going from say D minor to G7 to C major, this is one of the you know the few actual licks I do use, but I know this is one of them. Go on then. Yeah, nice, yeah. Because I I've I've always been a fan of the altered scale and the diminished scale. Yeah. So really, I mean the the the way up is just so I'm going third, fifth, seven, nine, eleven. Yeah. But then on the way down, just turning it into a diminished lick. Yeah. Do you know that's one of a few which I like. I mean I I I teach a few licks, but I'd yeah I shy away from uh just getting my students to do lots of licks in all different keys. I'd rather they work more on the natural ability to improvise. But just I do get them to um to play in time with a sequence, but only use, for instance, the the thirds or the fifths, or play just minim jazz, I call it. So you're improvising just using minims and thinking about the graduation of the uh the chord you're on, you know, all that kind of stuff.

Geoff: 22:51

Could you demonstrate that? Give us some minim jazz. I'll go straight in on a chorus. Here we go.

unknown: 22:55

Okay.

Martin: 23:24

And then what I do is start to um use different rhythms. I might do triplets across it then. Okay. Maybe minim triplets and then crotchets and then crotchet triplets. J uh in my uh opinion, it's good because it takes away one of the things you have to think about when you're improvising. So that the the rhythm is a given. So you concentrate and focus a little more on just the melody.

Geoff: 23:50

Amazing. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. Just to finish, I've got a couple of quick fire questions. Your favourite album?

Martin: 23:58

It's difficult to say one, but well, the first one that springs to mind is Three Quartets, Chick Corea. Oh, good question. I absolutely love that album.

Geoff: 24:05

Fantastic. That's Michael Brecker, isn't it? That's right. Yeah, um, yeah, fantastic. Beautiful. Favourite musician alive or dead, you like to play with?

Martin: 24:13

I, I always wanted to play with Chick, actually, Chick Corea. Okay. What I do love is his uh duo stuff with Herbie, first of all, and uh Gary Burton. Okay. I love those albums. Yeah, so much interplay, you know, it's beautiful.

Geoff: 24:26

Highlight of your career? Any any memorable gigs.

Martin: 24:29

I must admit, um I did I, I played for Jamiroquai in the 90s, and we did a few nice big gigs with those guys. We actually played at Woodstock in the late 90s, and we followed James Brown on stage, and there are about 120, 130,000 people in the audience. That one really stands out, I must admit. And the funniest thing about that is the following day we flew home and I played the Bull's Head with a little funk band to about ten people, feet right firmly back on the floor.

Geoff: 25:00

That's amazing. Yeah, I I came to see you play with Jamiroquai at Wembley Arena, yeah. You may have even put me on the door. Did you get to blow much in that band?

Martin: 25:07

Yeah, we did actually. Yeah, he was quite free with the solos. That was good.

Geoff: 25:11

What a great gig to do. How long did you do that for?

Martin: 25:13

I did it for six years, between ninety-four and two thousand. Fantastic, yeah. Yeah, it was good fun.

Geoff: 25:19

What's the last concert you went to?

Martin: 25:21

I must admit I hardly ever go and see music. I've seen Take Six a couple of times because I was so blown away with them. Yeah. And I saw Brecker a couple of times. Uh and I also saw Chick and Gary Burton. But I think for me personally, especially a few years back when I was very busy, I just, you know, a a night off was a night off I wouldn't have thought to go and see. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what it's like.

Geoff: 25:44

Um what would you say was your musical weakness?

Martin: 25:47

I suppose playing over changes like um Coltrane changes. Hard changes, yeah. I find it really difficult, actually. Yeah. I have to really work at that.

Geoff: 26:00

Do you ever get nervous on stage or when was the last time you got nervous?

Martin: 26:03

I do get nervous, you know. I get nervous because I'm not as match fit chops wise as I was when I was busy. It was really pre-COVID, I think. COVID did um change my professional work a fair bit. Yeah. And I'll be honest with you, I had a few months off because I just thought it would be a nice change. It was literally I had three months off playing. Really? Which is the first time since I was eleven years old. And uh you know, it was interesting. I obviously I missed it in the end, and it's great to be back. But uh it was interesting.

Geoff: 26:34

Okay. A few silly questions just to finish off. Your favourite sandwich?

Martin: 26:38

Favourite sandwich is tuna and sweet corn.

Geoff: 26:43

Have you got a favourite movie?

Martin: 26:45

Favourite movie has to be the Shawshank Redemption.

Geoff: 26:48

Oh, that's a good choice. Favourite venue that you played in?

Martin: 26:52

Oh, um I used to really like the Pizza on the Park. How was it? That was a really good room and the piano was fantastic. Yeah, yeah, that's a good one.

Geoff: 27:00

And your favourite country or city?

Martin: 27:02

Oh, um Vancouver. Oh I went to Vancouver once. We started a tour of uh Canada and America with Jamiraquai and then.

Geoff: 27:10

Very European, isn't it? That that's that's it.

Martin: 27:12

And it just really struck me. I remember thinking it's one of the few cities I could imagine living in, right. Apart from London, you know.

Geoff: 27:19

Excellent. And finally, your favourite chord?

Martin: 27:21

My favourite chord to play on. Well, it's it's gotta be altered scale or altered chord. Yeah. There's no particular key, I suppose. E for me. Yeah. So D, D7 altered. D seven altered.

Geoff: 27:32

Excellent choice. Right. So, Martin, thank you so much for for doing it. It's a pleasure. It was really informative and and I really enjoyed it. And hopefully we'll get people will get a lot from that. So thank you very much.

Martin: 27:43

Pleasure.

Geoff: 27:43

All right, and see you soon. Cheers.

Announcement: 27:45

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