Geoff: 0:00

Hello, Podcats. Geoff Gascoyne here. Hope you're well. Today I'm on the South Coast in Deal, and I'm here to see Norma Winstone, who is a terrific jazz singer, a lyricist, and a lovely lady, someone I've known for quite a long time. And we're going to talk a lot about writing lyrics and about her upbringing and things like that. So here we go. Hi Norma, how are you?

Norma: 0:51

I'm okay.

Geoff: 0:52

Yeah. Thanks for inviting me today. It's a lovely place living by the sea. Can we start talking about how you got started as a jazz musician? I've known you for a long time, but I don't think I've ever asked you about anything like that.

Norma: 1:04

Well, really, um I always loved standards. You know, I was brought up, my parents both loved music of all kinds, you know, classical, and my dad was a big Fats Waller fan. And of course they were big Sinatra fans, because when my dad was away during the war, he wrote to my mum and said, I've heard this singer on field radio, you've got to hear him, you know, he's fantastic. That would have been the time when he was singing like Nancy (With the Laughing Face). I don't think there's another singer, a male singer, as convincing as like when he sings a ballad, you know, totally believe him. And I think really I learnt a lot. I was always singing along. The radio was on a lot, and there was often really interesting stuff on the radio, and I found that every time I'd hear what seemed like a difficult melody, I tried to learn it. You know, I just remember that they used to play a Delius thing that was very popular, called La Calinda. Da I loved that, and it had at some point there would come this melody. Wow. And I immediately wanted to learn it. Don't ask me why, I don't know, but I just was always singing, loved all kinds of music. But then I I did hear Lena Horne. My mum took me to the pictures, she used to take me to the cinema every week, really. And there was a film called Words and Music, and it was all music of Rodgers and Hart. And suddenly this vision came on, this Lena Horne, and sang The Lady is a Tramp. She was so beautiful, I was transfixed. And I said to my mum, can you get me the music? I want to sing that song. So she did, and um, every Christmas we'd go to my grandmother's sister's house in Seven Kings for a big family party. My dad played the piano, you know, just just by ear. And the kids had to do something in the afternoon, do a little performance. And a cousin of mine did a bit of tap dancing, and somebody read a poem, and I always sang, and I was practicing This Lady is a Tramp, you know, for the Christmas party. And when I think about it, I had no idea what I was singing about. Can you imagine? I've wined and dined on Mulligan Stew. I mean, I thought, I don't know, Mulligan Stew, never asked for turkey. We never had turkey, it was always chicken because but um anyway. Uh I sang, sang this, didn't know what I was singing about, but then I got taken to see Carousel. The music was so wonderful. Again, Rodgers and Hart. If I Loved You was a song from that show, and I loved that. I mean, God knows what my dad played. I often think that maybe I got good at sticking to my guns because don't matter what he was playing, you know, I would sing the tune.

Geoff: 4:02

Yeah. Um that's a lesson right there, isn't it?

Norma: 4:06

I suppose it is. Yeah. But uh anyway, I was having piano lessons. I I mean I got a scholarship to um Trinity when I was 12 just to go on a Saturday and you'd have a piano lesson and a musicianship class. I could have taken singing as a second study, but I knew that it wasn't the right thing to do because the only thing you could do was sing classical music, and I loved classical music, but it's not what I wanted to sing.

Geoff: 4:31

Of course, there was no jazz education in those days, was there?

Norma: 4:34

No, there's nowhere that you could learn about jazz. So I just learned anything I knew about jazz from records, and I was also listening to Radio Luxembourg when I was supposed to be doing my homework really quietly on. And this one week, every night they played a different track from an album called Ella and Louis with Oscar Peterson on piano, and and I just fell in love with this, and I thought I've got to get it. So I had a little Saturday job in a sweet shop. Um so I saved up money, and I that was the first album I ever bought. I've still got it actually, Ella and Louis. And it's never fails. Still, it's great, you know. You listen to it, it just makes you happy, you know. And um, then I bought one that really makes you sad because the next one was Sinatra, Only the Lonely. And I used to sit crying listening to this. And then a friend of mine, her her brother, had an album called Jazz Impressions of the USA, Dave Brubeck, and I fell in love with that. Bought that one and played it over and over again. And of course, Paul Desmond's soloing, I didn't know that they were improvising. And I learnt these solos because they were so singable, and then I read that they were improvising. I thought, wow, that I thought I'd do that when I go to school. On my way to school, I'd be singing a song and then I'd make up a different song as I was walking there in time. Weird child, but anyway.

Geoff: 6:02

Um a talented child, not a real child.

Norma: 6:06

Well, then somebody came up with Miles Davis Kind of Blue. Well, I mean, that was well, people say game changer, but I mean it was so different, that album. And I loved it, and I played it over and over and over. And of course you could sing Miles' solos, really, mostly, because I mean, unlike Coltrane, no, you didn't, you couldn't, I could never have sung Coltrane's solos, but you could sing Miles's.

Geoff: 6:32

Yeah.

Norma: 6:33

And it was never explained to me what they were doing, but I just knew. I mean, it was musical enough to know that they were playing over the sequence of what they'd the melody that they'd played. Um, and I found myself thinking, wouldn't it be great if a voice could be in music like this? But I've no idea how.

Geoff: 6:50

Did you study harmony at at some stage?

Norma: 6:53

No.

Geoff: 6:53

No.

Norma: 6:54

No.

Geoff: 6:54

Everything you did was from by ear.

Norma: 6:56

By ear. But my mum was so musical, you know, I'd hear her whistling Miles Davis solos. I was just washing up.

Geoff: 7:02

Wow.

Norma: 7:03

Yeah, she just took the they went in, you know. So I mean, I got a lot from her. And she had a nice voice. I said, you know, I've never had any singing lessons. And they said, Oh, there's a singing teacher at Seven Kings, which was where we used to go at Christmas. So I made an appointment, I went to him. He never sang. I think he was a saxophone player. The first lesson was I went in, he said, Okay, right, take a breath. So I went, and he went, No, no, no, no. I'm gonna teach you how to breathe for singing. And he he taught me this thing, you know, about the diaphragm. You know, I thought, well, it feels all very odd. But I practised it. Every day I'd practised trying to do this breathing and singing long notes. That was more or less what he gave me, long notes and how to take breaths without like without doing that, you know, how to sort of snatch breaths and be able to sing and take things and sing as much as you could in one breath. And he got me some gigs with people that he knew, but it was weddings and functions, and I thought, I don't want to do this. So if I've got to do this, I don't want to sing. So I stopped. But I collected songs. I, you know, I was kind of on my way, but I'd never found anybody that I could really sing with. And I was working, I had an office job in Stratford. I was living in Upton Park in this flat, and um I was at work one day and I saw an advert that said jazz singer wanted in the Melody Maker. So I rang up and um I got the an audition. Anyway, got the job. It turned out to be like one gig, I think. But there was a girl in the office and she'd heard me on the phone and she said, Oh, do you like jazz? I said, Yes. She said, You should come to this pub where I go in East Ham. She said there's a trio there and a singer, so I went and I asked if I could sit in, and they reluctantly agreed. And um, then at the end of the evening they said, Oh, our singer's leaving in a couple of weeks. Would you like the gig? Like two nights a week. So I was kind of off then. There were they were jazz, you know, playing standards and things, and um, and then I started going around to the pubs that there were in and around London and sitting in. And I suddenly found myself singing at the Lilliput in Bermondsey. And John Taylor was there some nights of the week. Oh now, I'd met John because I was singing at the Albert in Chingford, and John had just come to London, and he was with a friend of his drummer Dick Esmond, and he came up and said, Can I sit in in the interval? I said, Well, it's not my gig, but you know, I'm sure you can speak to the guys, so he did. And he played, and then at the end, after he'd played, and I was going home, and he said, If ever you need a piano player, here's my number. I didn't need a piano player because they were always there, you know, whether you liked them or not, they were there. And I ran into Bobby Breen, West Indian singer. He was sang with the Dankworth Band. Kenny always liked him, Kenny Wheeler. I always liked Bobby. And um, I got to know him and I said to him, Oh, I said I'm really getting fed up. He said, I never really know who's going to be at the Lilliput for my gig on a Friday. And he said, You should come on a Tuesday. There's this guy there, ginger guy. He wasn't really ginger, but he had that sandy kind of hair. John Taylor, he's really good. So I went down there, and of course, John was playing, and then John got the gig five nights a week. So we were there together on a Friday, and immediately we started rehearsing, which he didn't do for those gigs. And he was just starting to write, he'd just got into Bill Evans from uh Oscar Peterson.

Geoff: 10:49

What age were you at this point?

Norma: 10:50

I suppose I was about 23, 24, something.

Geoff: 10:54

Of course, that makes a difference. You're rehearsing with the same piano player, you can develop new stuff, can't you?

Norma: 10:59

Exactly, yeah. At one point I was helping run a club at this place called the Regency Club in um Hackney. I didn't know, it was owned by the Kray twins, but I didn't know that, I didn't even know who they were. And we used to invite guests, and we invited, I remember Ray Warleigh had just come from Australia, then Ian Carr. And Ian said to me, You should sing with the New Jazz Orchestra. I'm going to introduce you to Neil Ardley. And he did, and through that, I mean I met Mike Gibbs, who's in that band sometimes. Trevor was on drum, Trevor Tompkins, Michael Garrick was on piano. Now Michael said, Oh, I've written these songs. Would you like to learn any of them? So I said, Yeah, okay. So I took them away. He'd written the words and everything. And I also realized that if I sang any of those, I didn't have an American accent. Whereas I've been singing like most singers, you know, you're influenced by American singers and you take on their accent, and um it suddenly affected what I did, you know, from then on. I thought, oh, and also when I was improvising, I I was sticking to the words. I didn't do any wordless improvising then. My idea of was just to play around with the tune and the words. And I went to one of Michael's gigs and I said, Oh, I learned some of your tunes. He said, Do you want to sit in and sing one? I said, Yeah, okay, so I did. And I went to sit down and he said, No, stay on. Join in the next piece. I said, I don't know. He said, No, it's alright, just join in. And it was, there were no words, so I thought, well, what am I gonna do here? So I thought I took a wordless solo. And his front line at the time was um Jim Phillip on saxophone, Art Seaman, saxophone, and Ian Carr on trumpet. Anyway, Michael said, Jim is leaving the band. Would you like to take over and sing the saxophone parts? I said, Yeah. So suddenly I was singing wordless, like these written, luckily I could read, which was unusual in those days, but just from having played the piano, I could read the music. Um, so there I was singing with another saxophone and a trumpet, and I loved it. You know, really loved it.

Geoff: 13:14

So you were part of the horn section, weren't you?

Norma: 13:17

Yeah. I mean, to be fair to Michael as well, it wasn't a thing that was particularly popular, I think, with his regular listeners.

Geoff: 13:25

But that's a testament to the fact that he he is he's quite open-minded for stuff like that.

Norma: 13:30

Yeah, he was. And then like other people, Mike Westbrook asked me to do things with a band like that. It was 1968, nine, when we'd just landed on the moon, and he did this thing, group called Earthrise. And uh there were some words that he'd written, and then there were some wordless things as well. Yeah.

Geoff: 13:50

So when did you start writing lyrics then?

Norma: 13:52

Well, Kenny Wheeler asked me to write words. Well, we did a recording, I think it was 1971 or two. It was Song for Someone, his this first album with the big band. Well, it wasn't the big big band, it was maybe 13 piece. He said, Oh, it'd be nice if you wrote words to this one tune called Nothing Changes. I thought, I've never really written words, but and the thing is, his lines were so long, I couldn't find anywhere to breathe. At a time when I can hear them say that it's the day that matters, doesn't matter what we do, still we wish we would find we could find so I found I could do it.

Geoff: 14:34

Were you quite well read? Did you read a lot?

Norma: 14:36

Yeah, I've always read a lot and I've always liked poetry at school. I loved poetry. I often used to think it would be nice if you could just write words and then just sing anything, a different tune to the words every time, but I never did it, but it was in my mind that you could. When I really got into writing lyrics, though, was when I felt I needed to expand my repertoire, you know, my personal repertoire, not the things I was doing with Michael and with Kenny. I was always looking for unusual standards, of course, but they were always standards. And there were people writing these lovely tunes, like Ralph Towner, Egberto Gismonti. And I thought they'd make really nice songs. So I started trying to see whether I could come up with words, and I realised I seemed to get quite good at it. Yeah. And um yeah.

Geoff: 15:27

I remember your fantastic lyric on The Peacocks, which is how did that come about?

Norma: 15:32

I heard Bill Evans playing it and I fell in love with that song. The bridge is so angular. Again, see, I was draw always drawn to difficult melodies, and I thought, God, I've got to learn that. So I started to try to write words, but I thought, well, where do you get peacocks? I was thinking parks, stately homes. And I remember doing a gig with Michael Garrick once in a place called Belton House, I think, near Grantham. And Alan Jackson was on drums and his car broke down or something. We had to go back the next day, to leave it there, and we went back for the AA to come and fix it and get us going again. And while we were waiting, they said, Oh, you just have a look around. So I wandered around this house. It was just such an atmosphere, you know, and I and I remembered this place always. And I and I just kind of imagined myself in this house and just suddenly thought, and the work out the windows looked out onto a pattern never-ending of flowers, trees, little pathways for descending to the gardens far below us, the pavilions in the sunset. And imagine somebody, a woman, was involved with one of the family from this house, you know, a well-to-do family. You'd never kind of find the real person. It was always a display like the peacocks. And I was off as she goes, she hears the ringing of a church bell. I like to get church bells in somehow. They they come in a lot to my lyrics sometimes.

Geoff: 16:54

And you got to record that with Jimmy Rowles, didn't you?

Norma: 16:56

Yeah, well, the thing is, I hadn't finished these words, and I got an opportunity to do a session with the NDA Norddeutsche Rundfunk Symphony Orchestra. They said you can do nine or ten tunes, get somebody to arrange them for the orchestra. So I went straight to Steve Gray. So we recorded it, and I thought, well, I wonder if I should send it to Jimmy Rowles. Anyway, I'd got an address for him. So I sent this cassette off with this recording with the NDR Symphony Orchestra, and my words, heard nothing. And six months went by. I thought he didn't like it. And Hugh, my husband, said, ring him. I said, no, I'm not ringing him. So he rang the number himself, gave me the phone. This is about midnight one night. And this woman answered, Hello. I said, Can I come speak to Mr. Rowles, please? He's sleeping right now. So I said, Oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. No, no, no, no. So we're getting kind of old over here. She said, ring back in an hour. And then I rang back and then Hello. I said, Well, I sent you this. Well, I didn't get them. He said, I've been ill. He said, So send me them again. But I have to warn you, there are already some lyrics. Somebody's written to The Peacocks. I want to hear yours. So I sent it again. And I was in a hotel in uh Sweden or somewhere, and I got this message. Please ring Jimmy Rowles in Los Angeles. So you can imagine how much that cost. So I rang him, and he was so lovely. He said, blew me away. I love those words. He said, but the thing is you can't record them because there are these other words. I said, Well, it doesn't matter. I said, You the fact that you like them is enough. No, no, no. He said, Look, just don't record them. And suddenly he rang one afternoon and said, Okay, I've been in touch with Johnny Morris's musical lawyer. And he said, What you have to do is change the title of the tune, re-register it as another piece. So it became A Timeless Place, which is what I hope people call it when they record it, because if they don't, I don't get anything for it. Don't get the 2p that I would otherwise get. Um he said, so you can record it now. Who are you gonna record it with? And I said, You, he said, me? Oh, I've been ill, no, I can't I couldn't, no, I can't think I could do it. I said, Oh well, it's a shame. I said, because there's some studio time I've got in Banff. I'm gonna be teaching there. He said, Oh, maybe, maybe I could. And then he rang me back later and said, No, my doctor said I can't, I can't count, it's too high. He said, I've got emphysema, which I hadn't realised. And he said, I feel quite despondent. And I found myself saying, I'll come to uh Los Angeles. I had no idea how I was going to afford to do it, but he said, Yeah, he said, Well, we could get Chick Corea Studio, and and it went on. I let him choose a lot of the tunes, a lot of the repertoire, and suggest things.

Geoff: 20:08

I mean, you probably got a better result, right? Giving him familiar music.

Norma: 20:12

Well, the thing is, we had done seven tunes, and then he said, I've got one more left in me. So I quickly did Joy Spring with bass and drums.

Geoff: 20:21

But this is where the best stuff comes out, although, isn't it? This these kinds of little events, don't you find?

Norma: 20:26

Yeah, adversity.

Geoff: 20:28

Yeah, absolutely.

Norma: 20:29

Yeah. Brings out, well, sometimes brings out the worst, but it can bring out the best.

Geoff: 20:42

Now speaking of Joy Spring, we were discussing you going to sing a tune for us today, and uh Joy Spring came up, right?

Norma: 20:49

It did.

Geoff: 20:50

Yeah, so you've known it a long time, haven't you?

Norma: 20:52

I have.

Geoff: 20:53

And you do some you you do things where you take the words and you change

Norma: 20:57

Change the melody.

Geoff: 20:58

Change the melody, right?

Norma: 20:58

Yeah, I've always done that. It could be unrecognizable.

Geoff: 21:02

It won't be, it won't be. And what we're gonna do, it's gonna be two choruses of Joy Spring. You're gonna improvise using the lyrics, right? But you're not gonna sing the tune.

Norma: 21:11

No.

Geoff: 21:12

Right, here we go. And

Norma: 21:20

Joy spring and feather breezes, a squirrel scampering on a leafy bough. We're together now, and life is a wonderful thing when we sing and laugh together. Never knew how sweet this life could be. When you're with me, I can feel joy spring, and my soul is free. The words of love that I had said were not for me. Come pouring up with this wild feeling of freedom. And I know I'll always remember, and in my heart there'll always be that wonderful, wonderful, wonderful joy spring, and feather breezes squirrel scampering I on a leafy bough. We're together now, and life's a wonderful thing. When we sing and laugh together, never knew how sweet this life could be when you're with me. All at once I can feel joy spring. At once my soul is free. The words of love that I had said were not for me. Come pouring up with this one, feeling of freedom. And I know I'll always remember, and then my heart there'll always be forever. That wonderful joy spring.

Geoff: 22:59

It's awesome. Whose lyrics are they? Well I think about the squirrels.

Norma: 23:04

No, called Ted Humphrey, and uh we actually went up to uh I think it was Southern Music, and they accepted them. In the meantime, John Hendrix wrote his, which I never sang because I'd always had these.

Geoff: 23:16

So who was he?

Norma: 23:17

He was a drummer, actually.

Geoff: 23:18

An English guy, or I don't know.

Norma: 23:19

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I did actually marry him.

Geoff: 23:22

You did actually

Norma: 23:25

but it didn't last.

Geoff: 23:26

So okay, just um you were married to John as well.

Norma: 23:30

John's I I married John then.

Geoff: 23:32

So just give me the quick, here goes therefore.

Norma: 23:35

Seconds out.

Geoff: 23:37

Seconds out. Just just a brief overview of your marriages.

Norma: 23:41

Oh my god. Um yeah, well, I yeah, I married him. Well, it was really actually to leave home because in those days, and we were talking about 1961-62, yeah, you couldn't go and live with anybody. It wasn't complete.

Geoff: 23:55

Until you were married.

Norma: 23:56

Yeah, until you were married. And he found this flat, and so I thought, well, okay, you know. So actually, to be honest, I always knew it wasn't really the right thing. Right. But it was a step, terrible, isn't it, to admit that. But anyway.

Geoff: 24:08

It's different times, obviously. It's different times, yeah.

Norma: 24:11

Anyway, we went on for five years, we managed to get through. But I was doing gigs by then, I'd met John. Not that it was anything really going on, but I knew we liked each other. And uh, I mean nothing really happened until I left. Suddenly, I I left Ted. And um, but he was, you know, he he used to write lyrics um and he'd written those. So that was it.

Geoff: 24:35

So then you married John. Yeah, yeah.

Norma: 24:37

Yeah, John. Well, it took a while to get a divorce bit from Ted because in those days you had to both agree.

Geoff: 24:43

Yeah.

Norma: 24:44

And he wouldn't agree, so so it dragged on a bit until he actually wanted to get married again. And John, well, John was just he was starting, well, it's 1967, I think we got together. And yeah.

Geoff: 24:57

How long were you married to John?

Norma: 24:59

Probably about 14 years, I think we were together. And we had the two children, and we took them with us sometimes when we were touring, which they loved, which was hard work for us. But luckily, um, we were touring with Azimuth. Kenny's wife came as well, Kenny Wheeler's wife.

Geoff: 25:15

Doreen.

Norma: 25:15

Doreen, lovely Doreen. And she would help out with them, you know.

Geoff: 25:19

Speaking about Kenny Wheeler, I've asked several people. I've spoken to Stan Sulzmann and Henry Lowther.

Norma: 25:25

Oh, yeah.

Geoff: 25:26

Um, and several people that have been on Kenny's Large and Small Ensembles album. Briefly, what's your memories of that?

Norma: 25:33

The music was always wonderful. To tour with that, I mean we had toured, I think, before with his bands, but that was special because we made a recording in the middle of it, and and also that the piece that he'd written, you know, the that opening.

Geoff: 25:49

Oh, just gorgeous.

Norma: 25:50

Like a prayer, you know, it's just wonderful. Actually, Kurt Elling, when I met him, said he used played that at his wedding.

Geoff: 25:57

Um it's a classic album, isn't it?

Norma: 26:00

It is. It was a bit problematic for me because I'd always been with everybody else, but they decided it everybody was in my microphone, so it wasn't really going to work. So I then had to be put into a box on my own, into a booth, which wasn't as easy because I was used to picking out naturally what I needed to hear. You know, when you've got stuff coming through the headphones, somehow it's not so easy to discern like the second altos, you know, or whatever. But so there were some things that I didn't sing very well. And Manfred said, Oh, it's all right, we're coming back tomorrow and we'll do repairs. And of course, everybody else did their repairs, but they ran out of time when it got to me. So, I mean, I know there are things that I could have done better, perhaps, or things that perhaps should have been on there that weren't. Not much, but you know, I know. And uh, and I always think that other singers, when they look at the music, think, oh, she didn't sing that obviously. No, incredible. A joy to sing.

Geoff: 27:02

Okay, so I've got some questions that I ask everybody. And my first question I'm gonna ask you is what's your favourite album?

Norma: 27:09

Well, Sinatra, Only the Lonely. It's it's close with the you know, the first one I ever bought with Ella and Louis, but because that always works, but I think it's gotta be Frank.

Geoff: 27:20

So, what is it about that album that particular album that you um

Norma: 27:23

Well I love the compositions on it and I just love the, I love the arrangements. It's Nelson Riddle arrangements, of course, but just the way he sings everything, you know, it's so believable and sad. I mean, I I mean, like a lot of people, I I prefer sad music. I find it, you know, I'm I'm very much more moved by that than by happy music, although, as I say, uh Elwyn Lou is the exception.

Geoff: 27:51

Second question, is there a favourite musician, alive or dead, you would like to play with?

Norma: 27:56

I would quite like to have played with Herbie Hancock. I mean there are other great musicians, like Shears Monty, I'd love to have done something with Shears Monty, but I don't know how that would have worked. He's such a wonderful player. I mean in those days, I remember when he had the sextet and I saw them at uh Ronnie's that uh now you know um Speak Like a Child.

Geoff: 28:18

Speak Like a Child, wow.

Norma: 28:20

That that time the way he was playing then, you know, would have loved to have uh

Geoff: 28:24

But his writing as well around that time is just incredible, yeah. What would you say was the highlight of your career so far?

Norma: 28:34

So far. I think doing the first recording for ECM with Azimuth, it was very special. John Taylor on keyboards because he was playing synthesizer then, and Kenny and me, just three of us. We did make an album, um, the third one we we did with uh Ralph Towner added, but Azimuth was the three of us. It's it's just that the way it happened, you know, John just got a synthesizer and he was messing around with it the night before he went off to various record companies he was going to with recordings that he and I had made um in the studio, just some some of his songs and some standards, and he had a list of people at record companies to visit. And top of the list, of course, was ECM, and you could actually manage to get to see Manfred in those days. And I think he already knew about John because Kenny had mentioned him before he did New High with Keith Jarrett. So he got a loop on this synth, you know, he was messing around with it, and he said, Oh, gave me a microphone and said, improvise over this. So I did, and he took that with him. And John Sermon had said, Take something unusual if you can. Manfred was the first on the list, and he went and Manfred liked what he played. John said, Oh, and I've also got this thing, this little thing that I've just come up with. And he played that, and Manfred said, I can hear a flugel with the voice. Let's do Let's record and let's bring Kenny in. So that was the start of that group, Azimuth.

Geoff: 30:06

Fantastic.

Norma: 30:06

Because then we had to come up with material that suited just three of us.

Geoff: 30:10

And where did you record that?

Norma: 30:11

Uh the first one was in the Rainbow Studios.

Geoff: 30:15

In Oslo

Norma: 30:16

With Jan Eric Kongshaug, the producer that Manfred Eicher always worked with at that time, and it was such a such a thing, and I just remember

Geoff: 30:24

How old were you at this point?

Norma: 30:26

36 by then. And um I can remember we were mixing, and I think Ralph Towner was around, and that's where we met him. He came into the studio, and um we had recorded a track, Siren's Song, and John had put the piano down, and then he wanted to play a solo over the top of it. And so everything was done. I knew I didn't have to do anything else so I could be completely relaxed, and I just remember sitting listening to him solo over what he'd put down on Siren's Song, and it was so beautiful, and it's still a real favourite track of mine. That it's just absolutely lovely.

Geoff: 31:04

Amazing. What's the last concert you attended?

Norma: 31:07

I did go to see Anouar Brahem at the London Jazz Festival last year.

Geoff: 31:13

What about some memorable concerts that you've seen in your life?

Norma: 31:16

Egberto Gismonti and Ralph Towner. That was another thing at the Barbican. Well, I love Ralph, of course. I love Ralph's playing and his compositions. But Egberto is some kind of magic. When you see him, I I would go anywhere to see him. In fact, I was very annoyed. Somebody told me he'd been in London not so long ago at a club, but I didn't know anything about it. But um, that was you know, one wonderful concert, and then it was sort of being the Bill Evans Trio at Ronnie Scott's. But I I saw him about three times, I think, at Ronnie's. And as soon as he touched the piano, even it might have been a fairly rotten piano because they didn't always have brilliant pianos there, I was in tears.

Geoff: 31:56

That's such a great feeling, isn't it, when music does that to you? I just yeah, wow. Okay, next question. What would you say is your musical weakness?

Norma: 32:05

I'm a bit last minute. I don't work hard enough, perhaps. So I tend to rely on the fact that I can make things happen. I would say that is probably

Geoff: 32:16

That comes from the the improvising nature of what you do, though, isn't it?

Norma: 32:19

Yeah, but but maybe that became because of the weakness. I don't know. Um yeah, I don't know. I mean, I can work hard and I will work hard to learn things. I seem to be. Yeah, you know, people think I'm a good reader, but I'm not a particularly good reader. It's just I've got a good memory. So once I've worked out what something is, when I look at that music again, it sparks the oral sort of memory.

Geoff: 32:45

Yeah. Do you ever get nervous on stage?

Norma: 32:47

Not so much now, but when I started, there was nobody more nervous than me, I don't think. I used to come out in blotches on my neck and my arms because I was so scared. And I remember Michael Garrick said to me, in the early days, he said it was almost painful to watch you. You were so nervous. But people often ask me because they think that I seem to be very on top of it, you know, when I'm on stage. So people asked me how did you get to that point? And I said, Well, just keep doing it. If you're driven to do it, you just keep doing it, keep putting yourself through it. And um eventually you work out a way. I remember Jay Clayton said to me once, Well, it's a question of we have to forget ourselves to think about the music instead of thinking about ourselves and what people are seeing. But I know that that's true, but it's very hard to do, and I think it's just you have to acclimatise yourself to being in front of people and knowing how that feels and learning it really. And um, I used to practice making announcements when I was at that pub that I told you about the first thing in East Ham. I'd think I'm gonna speak to the audience next time, and I'd I'd practice. Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. When it came to it, I couldn't say it. I'd go, nothing came out. I was so nervous.

Geoff: 34:10

Wow.

Norma: 34:10

Very funny innit.

Geoff: 34:12

I was speaking to Dave Green about this last week as well. Yeah. And he was very, he was very underconfident when he started as well. He was saying exactly the same thing, you know, just by when he got a call from Sonny Rollins, you know, it was like you're not gonna say no, but it just like terrified. Yeah, yeah. Amazing.

Norma: 34:31

He's great. In fact, in fact, Dave said something really to me once that actually he probably didn't even know, but it really affected me because we were talking about music, and he said, Yeah, I mean it's just sound, isn't it? That's the most important thing, your sound. And I thought, he's right, and I never thought about that. I hated my sound, I really didn't like it. And I thought, I've got to do something about that. Because I think I was so interested in improvising that I didn't think about how it was sounding. Um I was just interested in getting the lines right, you know, so that I was you know, yeah, improvising properly, but didn't think how it sounded. All I knew is when I heard it, I didn't like it. Um until I started working with Kenny, and I think that really affected me playing next to Kenny and hearing his sound. And then when we got to do the recording, the first recording for ECM, I heard myself in a way that I'd not heard it myself before, and I thought, actually, that's not too bad. And then having that sound in my head, I think I worked towards that sound,

Geoff: 35:42

And that gives you the confidence to go forward, right?

Norma: 35:44

To go forward, but that was

Geoff: 35:46

Really interesting. That's fantastic, yeah. Right, a few more not related questions to begin. Starting with, what's your favourite sandwich?

Norma: 35:54

Even though I'm vegetarian, a really good BLT is hard to resist.

Geoff: 36:02

When's the last time you ate bacon then?

Norma: 36:04

Not for months, no. Sometimes I I buy, you know, people are coming, and the if it's like streaky bacon at all, then I think, well, I could use this up, you know, and make myself a sandwich, right?

Geoff: 36:15

So you're not really a vegetarian then?

Norma: 36:17

No.

Geoff: 36:18

Well, it can't be a bacon sandwich. Um, all right, what's what about a favourite movie?

Norma: 36:24

Oh, I love Radio Days by Woody.

Geoff: 36:27

Woody Allen.

Norma: 36:28

Yeah.

Geoff: 36:28

Oh, okay.

Norma: 36:30

He's not actually in it as an adult, but there's a character in it who's supposed to be him as a little boy, and it was during the war, the importance of the radio to the family, and it's this Jewish family all living together, and it's just so wonderful, so funny. You know, there's lots of music in it that's evocative, you know. Yeah. Um, because that's when I was about listening to the radio, you know, after the war, and during the war, I suppose. I love Ken Loach's films. I could have easily said Kes actually, but for some reason Radio Days came out.

Geoff: 37:05

That's a great, great movie, yeah. Um, is there a favourite venue that you like to play in?

Norma: 37:12

No.

Geoff: 37:15

That's fine. Do you like do you prefer larger spaces? Do you like a good acoustic hall or do you like small clubs?

Norma: 37:22

Actually, I do like uh slightly larger places with good.

Geoff: 37:26

It's a natural reverb. Yeah, right.

Norma: 37:28

Um I like most places that I that I play at. You know, I'm going to be playing up in the Ambleside soon. And uh in the hotel. I love it simply because it's very homely, you know, you've got a fire going and uh people sitting eating.

Geoff: 37:47

Ambleside days, indeed, yeah.

Norma: 37:49

Yeah.

Geoff: 37:50

And what about travelling? Do you um is there a favourite place you like to visit, a favourite city or a favourite country?

Norma: 37:56

I love going to Ireland. I love a little place called Dalkey, um, which is about eight miles outside Dublin. Well, I love most places in Ireland to go. It's it's the people really.

Geoff: 38:08

But you work a lot in Europe, don't you? I know you said you said to me earlier you're you're going to Germany, aren't you, soon? Yeah.

Norma: 38:16

Yeah, there's a favourite hall actually in the Sendesaal in Bremen that's always special singing there because of the acoustic and the kind of audience, and so I've done lots of things with people that I love there.

Geoff: 38:30

And you're playing out there with just piano and voice, right? With with

Norma: 38:34

Kit Downes,

Geoff: 38:35

Right, right. Is that your preferred outlet at the moment? Do you ever play with a full band, or do you do you prefer to play a in duo?

Norma: 38:43

I like playing in duo, but I also liked playing in trio. You know, when I had the group with Laugo Venier on piano and Klaus Gesing on either soprano or bass clarinet. That's a really lovely combination. So it just depends who it is, really. And also I love playing with the group, The Printmakers, you know, with Mike Walker and Nikki Iles and Mark Lockhart.

Geoff: 39:07

So, what's happening in the future? What have you got in the next coming year?

Norma: 39:10

Well, I might be going to Canada again. I mean, I've got some gigs. Well, January, I've got the Pizza Pizza Express with uh Barry Green, who I've never worked with before. So that'll be interesting. Duo. And uh then I've got other things with Kit um in Europe. One thing that also I'm really looking forward to. Nikki I les, you know, she's now the visiting whatever for the NDR. She's she's doing various projects on that, and I'm going to do one on Kenny that Dave Holland's coming to do. In fact, we've got an album coming out in February. I think there might be an EP before then of um Kenny's last poem settings that he sent on scraps of paper to Pete Churchill to arrange for his choir. And it's it's just lovely, lovely music, lovely poems, you know, some quirky poems are in it as well. And uh Dave Holland and Pete Churchill kind of organised the recordings, and uh we did it about must be nearly four years ago now, but Dave kept taking the recordings back to America and mixing a bit, then he'd come back to England and mix a bit more. It's Nikki on piano, Dave Holland on bass, James Madron drums, and um Mark Lockhart on saxophones, John Parricelli's on guitar on some tracks, and Pete Churchill's London Vocal Project Choir. So that should be really interesting.

Geoff: 40:38

Fabulous comes out. So busy as ever, you're not you're not showing any signs of slowing down.

Norma: 40:44

Well, I might be showing signs of slowing down, but I am not slowing down.

Geoff: 40:48

You're not, no, no, and long may it continue. It's been amazing to chat to you. Thank you so much for having me.

Norma: 40:52

Thank you. Thanks for asking.

Geoff: 40:54

And um, yeah, it's been I could talk to you all day. So much I could have asked you and and haven't done, but we'll save that for part two, shall we?

Norma: 41:01

Yes. Yeah, definitely. Thanks so much, Norma. Have a cup of tea and

Announcement: 41:07

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