Catching Up in South London

Geoff 0:01

Hello, Podcats. Geoff Gascoyne here again. Hope you're well? Today, I've got a wonderful old friend of mine, Tom Cawley, a wonderful piano player, a lovely man, and he's coming round to my house in south London to have a little chat and have a catch-up. Actually, I haven't seen him for a while, so we've got loads of stuff to catch up with. I think he might get a little personal in places. He's got some lovely things to say, I'm sure. And play my piano. My slightly out-of-tune Yamaha piano. So here we go!

Announcement 0:49

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Geoff 0:58

It's Tom Cawley. Hello. Oh, we're off. We're recording.

Tom 1:01

You weren't even sitting down when you started that.

Geoff 1:03

That's the beauty of Bluetooth microphones, yeah. How are you today?

Tom 1:06

I'm very well thank you.

Geoff 1:07

It's a beautiful day, isn't it?

Tom 1:08

But the sun's come out. I hate to be so British as to start by talking about the weather, but it has, and the effect is notable.

How Tom Found Jazz

Geoff 1:15

Isn't it just?

Tom 1:16

Yeah.

Geoff 1:17

Shall we start talking about how you got into jazz in the first place? I've known you for a long time. I don't think we've really discussed that. No. I think I first saw you actually in the Royal Academy in the 90s when I was a teacher there. You were a student. You were in a particularly amazing year. So you had Orlando le Fleming, Fishwicks, Gareth Lockrane,

Tom 1:37

Osian Roberts, Henry Collins, Mike Feltham,

Geoff 1:42

I remember coming in to assess that year and just I can't think of anything to say apart from it was brilliant.

Tom 1:47

That's alright, that's a valid response.

Geoff 1:49

Isn't it?

Tom 1:50

I'm not talking about myself. I was very lucky because it was an era where you didn't have to be already that well developed. The me that auditioned in the 90s would definitely not get in now because he just wouldn't have had the experience or or indeed the expertise or the listening or anything. But you know, since then there's been like an explosion in jazz education and access to things like that. So people are much higher level now. So I was kind of taken on, I guess, a combination of potential and the competition not being particularly strong that year, but all the other people in my year were amazing. So I just got dropped into this incredible um hothouse of these brilliant musicians.

Geoff 2:31

Amazing, yes. Yeah, yeah. How did you get into jazz? What was your um starting point into improvising?

Tom 2:37

I mean, my my dad plays the flute. I think you can technically say that he plays the flute.

Geoff 2:43

I love your dad.

Tom 2:46

I mean, he'll probably listen to this, so I better backtrack.

Geoff 2:49

Should we say hello? Hello, Neil. Hope the heart's all right now.

Tom 2:53

Oh, yeah, crikey. Well, yeah, let's hope so. Yeah, he's um he's really into music and he plays the flute and the alto saxophone, and he's not, you know, the most sophisticated jazz player, but he loves jazz and he and he got me into the kind of hey, listen to this, listen to this.

Geoff 3:09

Brilliant.

Tom 3:10

But I didn't really know what I had to do until I got to London. I played in a school's big band in Lincoln, which is where I'm from, but there wasn't much going on around there. Uh, before that, I went to a music school in Manchester when I was eight till 13. I left that because it was just classical, nothing else, they wouldn't let you do anything else. So the world that I grew up in really didn't have that much. If you weren't from a major place, or if you weren't lucky enough to know somebody else who was into music and who could help you, you really there really wasn't any way of knowing. So I didn't really know what to do until I got down to London. And I think I was very lucky. And then I knew very suddenly what an enormous amount of stuff I had to have to do.

Geoff 3:53

Did you move down to London just to come to the Academy? That was the first time in London.

Tom 3:58

Yeah.

Geoff 3:58

Right, right.

Tom 3:58

Yeah, at 18, you know, as a

Geoff 4:00

I love that idea of uh of um being accepted on potential. That doesn't seem to be a thing anymore, does it?

Tom 4:06

Well, yeah, there it's it's always a factor. I should say now I'm teaching at the Academy and I'm involved in audition, so I can kind of have some insight into this. And obviously, one of the main things is can we teach them? Will they enjoy the course? Do we think that they'll improve? Do we think this is for them? All those kind of things. So potential is definitely still a factor.

Geoff 4:26

Oh, good.

Tom 4:27

But just in the way that I have to imagine it was when I auditioned. And they did an ear training test. I'm good at that, so

Geoff 4:32

I you have perfect pitch.

Tom 4:34

I think I should yeah, so I think I showed potential in that way as well. And I think they just thought, oh, he he'll be fine if we just teach him, which is great.

Geoff 4:42

But has it always been the same there at the Academy? Because I know they just they take a very small amount of people, don't they?

Tom 4:47

Yeah, they have to do. The the allocation for the course is um is kind of eight, nine, ten a year. That's the size of the course permitted in the building now. Overall, there's

Geoff 4:57

Does that make it a like an elite place to go to?

Tom 5:00

I don't like the word elite, but I suppose it's a high, a very high level, a high average level. And you know, each year is kind of focused into a group for most of what it does, but then of course everyone plays with everyone, they're all distributed among the years, and it feels like a big old community of brilliant young jazz musicians, basically. That's that's how it feels to me. Watching them, trying to remember that I'm no longer 21 and

Geoff 5:26

Well, I see that through my Lewis, who's who's in his third year at Guildford.

Tom 5:29

Leading a band and singing and writing music, and like

Geoff 5:32

He's playing at Ronnie Scott's Friday and Saturday night, Lewis is.

Tom 5:36

That's brilliant, isn't it? I saw um a couple of days ago, I saw in one of his stories on Instagram. Um he wrote, Oh, has anyone got any advice for like switching between double bass and electric bass on a gig? Yeah. What a shame there isn't anyone in your family that you could ask about that.

Geoff 5:55

It's funny, you know, having kids, isn't it? Because I've watched someone like like him grow up and uh he really hasn't asked me that much. I haven't done I don't know what it's like with your kids, but occasionally he's you know, I've tried to tell him things, and I don't know if it's like this with all kids, but if you try to tell your kids something, yeah, they don't necessarily listen. But if you wait until they ask you something specific, then they will listen.

Tom 6:16

I I have two kids around the same age as Lewis, and they um didn't pursue music. Yeah. I mean, I think it's really common that uh certainly friend Tom Bancroft, the drum I just remember him saying his son had started playing drums, and Tom was like going, Oh, you know, spotted a couple of things he could be doing better, and his and he said his son's just like shut up, Dad, yeah. Yeah, as if Tom wasn't this really sort of you know established jazz drummer.

Geoff 6:44

And yeah, it's just well it's funny because there are key moments when Lewis has come to me and said, Do you what about this, Dad? You know, like yesterday he sent me a text about a a preamp thing that that that that switches between electric and acoustic bass. Yeah. And of course I've got one, you know. And he but he didn't know, you know.

Tom 7:00

You've probably got one as a result of 40 years of owning different ones.

Geoff 7:04

Exactly, yeah.

Tom 7:05

Evaluating one.

Geoff 7:06

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Unfortunately, Lewis doesn't live here anymore, which is a it's a big hole in our life.

Tom 7:11

No, it's good for him though, right? Yeah, it's good for that.

Early London Gigs and Breaks

Geoff 7:14

It's great for him, yeah. So when you left the academy, what what was life like? Did you have some some good things that happened?

Tom 7:21

Yeah, there were lots of little gigs around London at that time. If I just look back and imagine a snapshot, it was dragging keyboards into pubs a lot. Um, driving around in a car that I bought for a hundred quid, um, pushing it down the Old Kent Road once when it ran out of petrol at two o'clock in the morning in a tuxedo.

Geoff 7:42

You make it sound so glamorous.

Tom 7:44

Enough time's passed for it to feel that that was an amusing thing to have happened.

Geoff 7:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tom 7:49

But I did a lot of that, played with a lot of people, very lucky again.

Geoff 7:52

Yeah.

Tom 7:53

You know that thing when you're young and you come out of college and people go, Oh, I've heard of

Geoff 7:58

He's hot.

Tom 7:59

I've heard of this person, let's try that.

Geoff 8:00

Yeah.

Tom 8:01

Um, I also won a couple of awards, which definitely helped. There was a thing called the Young Jazz Musician of the Year, and it was on telly, if you can imagine. Do you remember television?

Geoff 8:11

Remember television, yeah.

Tom 8:12

Yeah, it was on that, and I won that, and the prize was a week at Ronnie's and a week at the Blue Note in New York, which is unimaginable, isn't it? But yeah, so that obviously helped. First night I played at Ronnie's, the first tune, there I was playing away, bit nervous, and I looked over my shoulder, and it was in those days where there was a little chair by the door where Ronnie used to go in.

Geoff 8:37

Yeah, yeah.

Tom 8:38

Actually, I think Ronnie had Ronnie probably just died by then, but the guy Jimmy, wasn't it, who did the announcing, and he would sit there. Um, but he wasn't sitting there, it was Paul McCartney. Just just looked over my shoulder and saw Paul McCartney, and was just kind of like, oh gosh, you're somewhat out of your depth here, aren't you?

Geoff 8:58

You are yeah,

Tom 8:59

just to be absolutely clear, I am.

Geoff 9:04

You speak to him?

Tom 9:05

Uh no. No, no, of course he'd left by the time I finished. But it was just that kind of thing of like London, you know, you still having moved down.

Geoff 9:13

It can it can happen anywhere.

Tom 9:14

Yeah.

Why Standards Still Matter

Geoff 9:15

That's a that's an amazing, exciting, exciting thing, you know. Yeah. Um so when you were studying jazz, how important were playing standards to you?

Tom 9:23

It was really important. I think actually on the jazz course itself, they did their best to open our eyes to as much different music as possible and get guests in, because their their remit is to prepare you for the world and make you make it so that you can go out and work as a musician, um, as well as develop your voice and everything. It's a kind of like um duty. But amongst all that, certainly among my peers, the aforementioned glittering uh list, standards were the most important thing. So it was all about learning tunes, playing tunes. They're all the same as well, aren't they? After a while. Like you learn the progressions, and each tune, particularly for rhythm section players, each tune is kind of like once you've learnt a few.

Geoff 10:06

You see the patterns are emerging.

Tom 10:08

Yeah, it takes so much less time to learn the next ones, you know. And we'd all lived together and we just played together a lot. And I learned loads, not just standards, but like loads about comping language, soloing licks, but also comping licks and different ways of voicing things, or just all the different things that you can do.

Geoff 10:27

Do you do that through transcribing?

Tom 10:29

Listening mainly for things like that, and also I was gonna say talking about it, but quite often being told what works and what doesn't. You know, when you play, say a jam session, or you've just got people around your house when you're in 20 or something, and like everyone wants to play a lot, and part of the thing with rhythm section is to keep it interesting and you learn about the different parts of the piano you can comp in and the different rhythms, and you learn when to follow soloists, when to ignore them, when they don't need you to follow them, they just need a thing to play against, you know, all those things. I learned a lot about that.

Geoff 11:02

You were glancing across at the piano then, if you wanted to.

Tom 11:04

Only to reassure myself that um that it was familiar.

Geoff 11:07

Any examples of that?

Tom 11:09

Examples of that. There's just so many different ways of playing C minor, aren't there? There's this kind of this kind of language, yeah. And then there's like this kind of thing.

Geoff 11:27

So taking things out and playing them in different parts of the piano.

Tom 11:30

Different parts of the piano, also just this kind of like this kind of thing sounds sounds. It's all about context. I think that's why I was hesitating to play the piano before. But if I'm playing that can sound amazing if somebody's like on its own, it probably doesn't play.

Geoff 11:49

Yeah, but if you're playing that low down with with a bass player, it's gonna sound quite muddy quite quickly, isn't it?

Tom 11:55

It can. I might be making assumptions that you'd be very keen to um dismiss, but I don't mind that because I think if I'm down here, yeah, um, and you're you still you're still down there, you can very much be like and I'm like, you know. What I'm not talking about is the whole gig. This this is quite important caveat. I'm talking about moments to get you away from just being like all night. I think that I think that creates space. Yeah. And also, I don't think I'll be playing roots either. Yeah. I quite like it at the end of pieces, at the end of a tune, to just sort of if if the last if the last chord's B flat major and you're gonna play that, I say you, as bass players. Yes. You're representing bass players. Oh, yeah. I quite like to that's that's a really lovely choice for me. Yeah. It just sounds really wholesome. Yeah. And I'm not playing the root. Oh, there's no need for me to play the root. Or the even even that can um can work. Yeah. Which I'm just playing five, three, six, nine.

Geoff 13:02

Yeah.

Tom 13:03

And you know, that all or variants of that, that kind of thing. I don't know. I think you only learn that sort of thing by playing and by being told. I'm really talking about my friends, actually, by which I mean the people that I played with also.

Geoff 13:16

Your contemporaries, yes.

Learning Through Feedback and Honesty

Tom 13:17

Contemporaries, yeah. They're all nothing if not um opinionated and passionate. So it's a good combination. And also, I remember maybe I don't know if you've ever done this, been brave enough. I remember once sending an email out. You get out of college, I'm skipping ahead a bit here, if if we're thinking of this chronologically, but after a while, you're like, I haven't had a piano lesson for years. I haven't had an ensemble where someone's gone, yeah, piano player, don't do that. Sometimes you do that, and I wish you'd do it more. You do, you know, or anything to do with what I can do, but I don't do enough. Or I wish they people wish I'd

Geoff 13:49

Do you like that though? Do you like do you like honest criticisms?

Tom 13:52

I would love to be told, yeah, because that's how you get better. But I remember sending out an email a few years ago just to a few people that I was playing with a lot at the time, I guess drummers and bass players, and just saying, look, I know this is a bit weird, we're a bit British, but I haven't had a piano lesson for ages, or any feedback. Can anyone tell me a thing that I do that they wish I didn't do so much? Well I would really love to know, because obviously I'm clattering on doing my best. Yeah. It'd be great to have a, nobody wrote back.

Geoff 14:21

Oh, God. That's all right. I'm just thinking about what I would have said if you'd sit down with it.

Tom 14:25

Well, I wish, yeah, well, I wish I I wish I had. It must have been.

Geoff 14:28

Well, you think we played together for quite a while, actually.

Tom 14:30

I know. That's probably why. That's how it goes, isn't it? You you find yourself playing with certain people in certain spells.

Geoff 14:36

That's very honest and open of you to do something like that. It's very British for people not to reply.

Tom 14:41

Yeah, yeah, it is. And it's kind of disappointing, but also it's understandable. Like if someone did to me, it would be difficult to respond, wouldn't it? Because you'd think I'm taking a risk here. Because I know that they want me to say that, but if I say something even invited, you stand a chance of just coming across as a big thing. As a bit of a you know what bad. Yeah. It's funny because in order to get anywhere on your instrument, you start off with somebody telling you how to do it correctly, right? In most cases, certainly in my case, I was classically trained, so it was all about no, your handshape's wrong, or you know, your thumb should be this, and you know, evenness of tone is important, all the but all these things they're all instructed, and you strive towards them and you present your week's work to the teacher, and the teacher says, you're doing this right or you're doing this wrong. And and if you if you think of like anything else, like sport, they all have like the best tennis player in the world has a coach who's watching out for him and saying, you know, this habit's creeping into your game. The coach can't play as good as the person, but that's not their role. Their role is to diagnose how to improve the person. And I think if anyone seriously wants to get better, they they've got to be able to embrace at least being able to say, Don't do that thing, you know, you do that thing, it's really annoying.

Geoff 15:53

So I presume that this happened with your contemporaries out of the

Tom 15:57

more it would be like just people saying, Check out, check this out. I reckon you'd like this. And the sort of implication is I think you're probably trying to play like that, listen to this a bit more, and it's great. I remember also people being like, Yeah, he's not gonna listen to it, is he? Orlando le Flemming, he's a old friend, and we used to live together, and I remember him getting this gig, and we were still at college, I think, in the final year, and the piano player left the band, and I was like, Oh, can you mention me?

Geoff 16:26

A gig, a good gig.

Tom 16:28

Yeah, it was a nice band, you know. And he just went, I'm not sure you're ready. Like that kind of thing, but that's really good because I think it's really caring response. It's like, I don't know, I quite like that, honesty. I quite like it.

Geoff 16:42

I'm not sure about that actually, but and how did you take that?

Tom 16:44

Probably mixed. I probably thought, ah, and then probably thought, no, he's probably right, need to work on that a bit more. They're playing, they're playing music that basically I put I wouldn't have been great on, right? So, like, get that stuff together and then think about it. I think one of the things also is that you often get not sacked from bands, but you find that you're

Geoff 17:04

Someone else is doing it,

Tom 17:05

Right. And yeah and you have to be okay with that because it's probably not I find this person intolerable. I mean it could be, but it probably isn't. It's probably just like, oh, for this next thing I'm gonna try that person. And I think part of the thing there is just getting on with it, and when you see them next, just being like, hey, how are you doing? You know, cool, because that's what they deserve. They gave you loads of work, you played together, you have loads of you see sometimes in people like a bit of bitterness towards something, and you think, Oh, you don't need to, that's not doing anyone any good.

Geoff 17:33

Yeah, because all these things happen for a reason, you you have a void and then you fill the void with something else. My example is when I got fired from the Jamie Cullum's band, which was huge which was massive and devastating, you know. But if that had not happened, I wouldn't have started making library music. But you know what I mean? It's these things happen for a reason, don't they?

Tom 17:53

Yeah. And also, like without wishing to get too philosophical or something, even if they don't happen for a reason, the fact that they happen is not now in your control, yeah, but you know, what you do next obviously is. And when you say you started doing library music, I feel like for the listener, we should clarify that you've actually produced like an amazing catalogue of nuanced, beautiful music.

Geoff 18:15

Thank you very much. Um, it's very kind, yeah. It's been amazing. I mean, the library music for me has been a saviour. I've done I don't made 15 albums for KPM and another five, so I think 19 or 20 albums I've made now. Yeah. And it's paying dividends now because as I got to lockdown, the royalties cut in and and it's like a pension. So it's take it's taken all the pressure off financially, you know.

Tom 18:37

Yeah. So but probably the probably the one of the big reasons that it's paying off is because you did it with care and you did it properly like as if to say, right, this is my thing now.

Geoff 18:47

Anyway, it's not about me.

Tom 18:48

It's not,

Geoff 18:49

Right.

Tom 18:49

It's about me, Geoff.

Choosing Charlie Parker’s 'Confirmation'

Geoff 18:50

It's about you, Tom. Yeah. So, I asked you to pick a standard to play for us today.

Tom 18:54

Oh yeah.

Geoff 18:55

What did you pick?

Tom 18:56

I picked Confirmation.

Geoff 18:57

A Charlie Parker standard. Is there anything particular thing you like about that tune?

Tom 19:01

Yes. I I guess um

Geoff 19:04

It's a good one!

Tom 19:05

It's a good one, isn't it? It's got some nice changes. I think perhaps I haven't played it for ages, so I thought, oh yeah, I'll do that. I'll I'll have a go at that. Um I always enjoy playing it. There's some nice versions of it, there's some nice contrafacts. There's a great Horace Silver tune called Juicy Lucy, which I used to play, a trio made famous to me by Phineas Newborn Jr. Um, and it's just one of those sequences, isn't it, that that allows you to play lots of stuff.

Geoff 19:32

So speaking about influences, I know we've we've spoken about this before when I was speaking to Geoffrey Keezer about this last week as well. Phineas Newborn, he's a big influence on you, isn't he?

Tom 19:41

I I love him, yeah. Yeah. I I was introduced to him by Matt Fishwick, the drummer in uh year at college. Possibly in one of those situations I've said before where it was like, yeah, you should listen to this guy. You seem to be trying to, you know. But he just went, I think you'd love Phineas Newborn, check out World of Piano, and I just instantly just like fell in love, you know, and just bought everything of every I've got so many of his records, and yeah, he's amazing.

Geoff 20:07

Right, okay, I'm gonna cue this up. You're gonna play two choruses of Confirmation.

Tom 20:10

Two choruses!

Geoff 20:11

Two whole choruses, one will be in a two-feel, second chorus will be in a four-feel. Uh, there'll be a four bar introduction on C pedal, I believe. Are you ready?

Tom 20:20

Yeah.

Tom Plays Two Choruses

Geoff 20:21

Here we go. No mistakes! Yeah. Just the right right speed for double tempos, right? Some lovely uh some outside stuff there. What was what were you thinking of thinking of when you were improvising on that? There was a lovely moment where you sort of went outside.

Tom 22:14

I'm just trying to think now. I'm just looking at the piano as if it will reanimate. Yeah. Um in order to

Geoff 22:20

I'm just seeing, all I'm seeing the dust on the some of the that's what I'm seeing. Some of the black keys.

Tom 22:25

Yeah. Nice rhythm section, by the way.

Geoff 22:28

Right, okay.

Monk, Taste and Deliberate Weirdness

Tom 22:28

I think I was just trying to make a nice um a nice little two choruses, isn't it? Yeah. So I so I guess it's just a nice little journey. We got a bit faster in the second one when the walking starts. Outside, nothing too much, really, was there? No. A little bit of tritone.

Geoff 22:44

Elements of Monk as well?

Tom 22:46

I mean, not consciously, but I do like Monk. He's one of them that took a bit of a while. Because actually, when you're learning, I think, well, when you're learning piano, particularly like from classical, a big part of the pursuit is about tone and like having variety of things, touch. You know, that that kind of thing where where you're like that with the melody on the top, and then so you've got like a different guy playing the underneath bits and a you know, all these these things where where where you try and vary the sound and you try Monk, absolutely none of that, is there? No, from the point of view of a young student looking at trying to sort of refine their touch and their jazz vocabulary, he he was just way, way beyond my listening um list. And now I just think it's incredible to listen to him. I just love him, it's it's it's ridiculous. Particularly the same thing.

Geoff 23:42

The analogy there for me is is painting in some ways, because you know you get very refined paintings and then abstract painters that they just basically want to paint like a child, yeah. And they go all the way back to try and be naive, and and that's how I see Monk. It feels very tribal and sort of percussive and and naive in some ways.

Tom 24:02

Yeah, and it's amazing how deliberate it is as well, isn't it? Like you listen to a few different recordings of the same song, and there are some bits that just survive all versions, and some versions, sometimes you hear a song it's got completely different changes, but one little idiosyncratic bit has survived the cull, and and you know, and it felt the first time you heard it, you almost think it's a mistake or it's off the cuff or something, and it's not, it's it's composed, and all of that stuff so eye-opening.

Geoff 24:38

Okay, so I've got some questions I asked everyone.

Tom 24:41

Oh, brilliant!

Geoff 24:42

Yes, so we've we've we've done with all that now. Uh the first question is a favourite album?

Tom 24:46

I think it's probably World of Piano by Phineas Newborn.

Geoff 24:48

I knew you were gonna say that.

Tom 24:49

I think.

Geoff 24:50

Yeah, no, it's cool. I listened to that the other day, actually. It's pretty full on, isn't it?

Tom 24:55

So oh god, it's so brilliant. It's so joyful.

Geoff 24:58

Fast tempos, though, I mean.

Tom 25:00

Yeah, yeah, but the way he navigates, the joy, it just makes me smile at just the whole thing.

Geoff 25:06

Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful. Okay, second question. Is there a musician alive or dead that you'd like to play with?

Tom 25:11

I mean, many. Imagine, has anyone ever said no? No, no one mate. I'm I'm done. All the dead ones as well.

Geoff 25:21

Yeah.

Tom 25:21

Had enough. Who I'd like to play. Well, I mean, you've got to say, imagine being in Coltrane's band, imagine that. But for that, McCoy would have had to have not. I don't I'm maybe I'm looking too much into the I've suddenly created this whole narrative around it. Somebody to play with, like just a one-off. You you get called to do their gig and it's fun, it's not like they're gonna kill you. Yeah, one of those guys, one of those guys, Coltrane or Charlie Parker. I mean, that would be ridiculous, wouldn't it? Imagine that. But there was a very brief, very short-lived discussion recently in some social thing I was at. We're talking talking about time machines or something, where would you go? And I was so embarrassed waiting for my turn, because it would have just been late 40s in New York, go and watch some gigs. Yeah. That's all it would have been. And and obviously other people had much loftier.

Peter Gabriel and Career Highs

Geoff 26:09

What about in terms of other types of music? Because I know you played with Peter Gabriel for briefly, didn't you?

Tom 26:14

Yeah.

Geoff 26:15

I mean, gosh. That must have been a highlight, surely.

Tom 26:17

That was uh yes, and and it was one of those where it was really clear to me the whole time that it that this was going to be one of my life's highlights. So I just absolutely allowed myself to enjoy it. You know how sometimes you kind of can come to the end of something and go, God, I wish I'd just relaxed during that, it could have been great.

Geoff 26:35

Just enjoy it as it's going on.

Tom 26:37

This was incredible. He was one of my favourite uh musicians. When when I was growing up, I I've had his albums and and I not only got to meet him but got to play with him. I got I got to go around his house and record in his studio and played at the O2 last year with him and just came and sat in. I'm not in his band anymore, but I played on his last album and he texted me the night before they played the O2 and said, Oh, do you want to come and play this song that I played on the album? Unbelievable, isn't it? He's so incredibly great. You know, it's in my experience of everything you would hope somebody would be. Yeah, just incredible.

Geoff 27:16

Yeah, yeah.

Tom 27:16

Yeah, and I went up and played with like Manu Katché and Tony Levin and David Rhodes, the band I'd bit - the band off Sledgehammer.

Geoff 27:23

My god.

Tom 27:24

Yeah.

Geoff 27:25

Well, actually, you may have already asked because my question three was a highlight of your career. Would that have been a high highlight?

Tom 27:30

It's gotta be, yeah. Well, actually, probably the project that I was actually involved in, which was called Scratch My Back, uh, and it was an orchestral thing, and we did two albums and a live DVD, and we toured America and Europe and South America, and that was unbelievable, yeah. Yeah, that's yeah, nothing nothing. It wasn't just those facts, it was just the music was so beautiful. John Metcalfe, who imagined it and wrote all these incredible arrangements I was exposed to. So I met so many lovely people, play just was part of this incredible music experience.

Geoff 28:05

When you're part also when you're part of a big touring party like that, it's like a big family, isn't it?

Tom 28:09

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was it was really special. And I and also it was so far away from anything that I'd done before, and also I knew anything I was uh also going to do in the future. It was just magical, yeah.

Weakness, Nerves and Hearing Loss

Geoff 28:20

Fantastic. Question four, what would you say is your musical weakness?

Tom 28:25

Weaknesses as a player, I think just um just I'm just not as good as I I'm not as good as I should be. I think I should have practiced more when I was at college. And I think I'm not as good in B major as I am in B flat major. And I think I'm not as good at the stuff I play. I I I record myself a lot and I listen back to it, and it's kind of so much editing would be required to make it the I I don't know, yeah. I I don't know.

Geoff 28:50

I mean, are you playing how much are you playing it in a week? Playing how many gigs are you doing?

Tom 28:55

Actually, it it it varies at the moment. I'm not doing so many, yeah, but I'm but the ones I'm doing I'm I'm really enjoying. I'm doing some really nice things where I have to learn nice music and they're rewarding, and but yeah, I'm not so I'm I'm not doing the kind of thing when you're out every night. There was a period about 10-15 years ago where I was playing in the at Ronnie's, they had the house trio, would do the support for every gig. Um, and I was often doing that. Um and that was just incredible, just being just play, you play 45-minute set of trio music and then go to the pub. And really, I can't think of a better night out than that. Yeah, I guess I guess a weakness might just be like taking myself a bit more, seeing an opportunity and going, right, you know what I should have done for that? I should have I should have learned 850 standards and said, right, tonight we're doing them in these keys, I should have practiced more in between them. You know, those kind of opportunities where you think, yeah, I could have really I'm sure I'll listen back to this thing today and go, yeah, well my articulation of my time could be better. I think my time's alright.

Geoff 30:02

I I have to say, your time, you know, the stuff that you recordings that you've done for me as well, your time is perfect in the studio. You can play you can place a chord exactly and I know this because I've I've edited it. I've edited so many musicians, and the way you play a place a chord is it's exactly where it should be.

Tom 30:19

Oh. Yeah. Well, that's very nice to hear. I th I think articulation of lines could be better. Oh, there's so many things.

Geoff 30:26

No, I mean, you're talking about technical, I can't see any faults in what you do. It's always immaculate when you play, I in my opinion. Okay, so next, do you ever get nervous on stage?

Tom 30:36

Generally, no. More recently I've started feeling a different kind of confidence, which is this kind of looking out and going, they're all here to watch people enjoy themselves play, watch people who are good at playing enjoy themselves play. I can do that, I can enjoy this, and I can definitely deliver that. I can definitely be a piano player enjoying playing, and that gives you confidence and stops you feeling nervous. But yeah, I feel nervous if I've got a gig where I know I haven't quite practiced a tune enough, or I haven't quite got my head round a metric modulation to the to the extent of the other people, and I know that there's a chance I'll not hear something, or I'll I've spent my whole life basically playing off listening to the bass. That's that's basically how my brain operates. Listens to the bass, here's what the notes are, plays according to that. And a couple of years ago I had a flight where my eardrum um burst, and then an infection came in, and then the other one went, and I was basically deaf for a while, and a kind of awful tinnitus wouldn't really cover it. It was like it felt like a tin barrel being rolled down a cobble street. It sounded like that in my head. It was just deafening and agonizing. And and then when I came out of it, I couldn't hear bass. I could hear everything else, and and in the hospital, they were like, Well, you're alright. And I was like, Can we just look below two 250 Hertz? And they were like, Yeah, it drops off there, but that shouldn't bother you. People don't know. I was kind of like, Oh no, well, it's gonna come back, isn't it? And it is coming back, it's fine, but there was a period where I couldn't really hear the notes the bass were playing, and I was just all over the place because my whole thing has always just been about what's happening down there, great, I'll go here and not the other way around. Like, I'm doing that, I don't know what you're doing, mate, but I'm here. So I had to kind of like that was a big thing, and that made me quite nervous. Yeah, because you'd miss cues and you'd miss things, yeah. And so that, and so then you'd go into a gig going, oh, I'm not quite, I haven't got all my

Geoff 32:29

well that'll take your confidence away straight.

Tom 32:31

Yeah, I haven't got my proper trainers on for this one. I'm in my socks.

Geoff 32:36

How is it now? How is it now? How's your hearing now?

Tom 32:38

It's gett it's much better, yeah. Right. I missed an opportunity to ask you to repeat the question there, didn't I?

Geoff 32:45

Have you ever been starstruck?

Tom 32:47

Yes, hopeless in those situations. I've met Brad Mehldau a couple of times, maybe a few times. He couldn't be, couldn't have been nicer, and in fact, remembered me, and in fact, even one time got me in his dressing room and said, Here, have a go on this piano, it's nice, isn't it? It was so amazingly lovely, and every time I've just been this sort of I've got to say, gibbering idiot. Yeah, also sportsman Jenson Button. I had an amazing day where I was given this opportunity to like spend the day with him, met him, had lunch with him, couldn't get out of my coat because I'd sweated so much I couldn't take my coat off. Yeah, yes, I do, yeah. That's hard, that's hard getting better at it, but my god. It's alright. If you're if you're their equal, like if you're in someone's band and you're there and they're glad that you're there, that's completely different. That's fine, but it's the status thing, isn't it? It's when you're just like, Oh, hello, look, I'm really sorry, this is the last thing you need, but I would really like to say hello to you. Yeah. But when you're starting from there, I'm hopeless. I'm yeah, and yeah.

Geoff 33:44

I know it's hard though, isn't it? Uh right, a few other uh questions non-musical related. Okay. Oh what's your favourite sandwich?

Tom 33:54

Oh, that's a great question. Gosh, there are so many. Does anything beat bacon? No, a bacon sandwich. Yeah.

Geoff 34:01

Ketchup?

Tom 34:02

Yeah.

Geoff 34:03

Brown sauce?

Tom 34:04

Actually, maybe an egg. Bacon and egg. If I'm feeling brave, it's a bit stressful sometimes, isn't it?

Geoff 34:09

That but nothing beats a bacon sandwich. No. Um, all right, what about a favourite movie?

Tom 34:14

Blues Brothers. Straight, straight in.

Geoff 34:16

Orange Whip? Orange Whip? Yeah.

Tom 34:19

Yeah. Three Orange Whips. Yeah. Yeah, Blues Brothers.

Geoff 34:23

The scene with Ray Charles in the music store. It's classic.

Tom 34:26

Oh god, it's just the whole thing's incredible. And also, we got that out when I was a kid, and we were in, you know, the video shop, and my mum said, Have you got anything with a car chase? Because I I wanted something with a car chase, and I was probably about 10 or something. And it of course has an incredible car chase in it, but unwittingly, it's not really.

Geoff 34:47

It's got about 50 cop cars that all pile up, isn't it?

Tom 34:50

Yeah, it's just it's it's absurd. And cars flying through the air, and then and and at the very end, when they finally make it onto the by the council buildings in Chicago, they get out of the car and it just collapses, it just falls to bits. Yeah, that's nothing. I almost forget that there's any car chases or all these SWAT teams. Everyone's after them, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, it's a like celebration of soul music. It's unbelievable.

Geoff 35:12

It's a brilliant film.

Tom 35:12

If anyone hasn't watched it, it's got James Brown in it as the as the reverend in the church and Aretha Franklin. Aretha Franklin making dry white toast and four fried chickens.

Geoff 35:22

Oh, yeah, because she works in the cafe.

Tom 35:24

Yeah, and her husband's Matt Guitar Murphy. It's it's amazing, it's an amazing film. Lou Marini, he's like a sort of waiter in it.

The Vortex and Solo Sampling

Geoff 35:32

Yeah. Uh is there a favourite venue or type of venue you like to play in?

Tom 35:36

I love the Vortex. I've just been doing a um solo project with piano live sampling with um Octatracks, uh, which is this mad machine. I kind of got to this point where it's like, you have to do this now. I've always wanted to do it. And I just play the piano into the thing, live sample it, sequence it. It's this it's this sort of genius box that can just do whatever you can think of, and just have the piano coming back and doing all these things, and I can improvise with the piano. Uh suffice it to say, the only place that I could approach with any confidence at all and say, Could I ever go at doing this in front of people? was the Vortex. So even just for that alone. But I I I love it there. They they um yeah, they just love music there, don't they? Mm-hmm. Obviously, played I played the Hollywood Bowl, Geoff, as as have you. Um that was pretty great.

Geoff 36:29

It's good, isn't it?

Tom 36:30

Yeah, but you can't say, Oh, favourite venue, Hollywood Bowl. You can't really say that.

Geoff 36:34

You could say that, you could say you could easily say that.

Tom 36:36

No, I think I think those those kind of places anywhere where there's a vibe, anywhere.

Geoff 36:41

Speaking of travelling, have you got a favourite place in the world you like to visit? Maybe it's city or something.

Tom 36:46

New York, yeah. Although I haven't been for a while. And the last time I went, it was um very expensive. And actually, lots of people my age seem to be leaving now.

Geoff 36:56

Leaving New York?

Tom 36:56

yeah. Yeah, lots of musicians that I kind of know.

Geoff 36:59

I don't think New York is probably just America in general.

Tom 37:02

Yeah, actually perhaps. I really think London is an incredible place to live.

Geoff 37:07

I agree.

Tom 37:08

There's so much, isn't there?

Geoff 37:09

It's I think London, I think that's it. Why not?

Geoff 37:12

Why not? And when you travel, window or aisle?

Tom 37:15

Probably the aisle.

Geoff 37:16

Yeah.

Tom 37:16

Yeah, because of you know, insecurity about waking people up when I need the toilet or just disturbing people. Aisle. Yeah.

Geoff 37:24

You're very empathetic, aren't you? Cats or dogs?

Tom 37:27

Cats.

Geoff 37:28

Right.

Tom 37:29

Sorry. I know you're dogs.

Geoff 37:32

There is one over there, asleep on the chair. Two more questions. What's your most used app on your phone?

Tom 37:37

Oh god, it's eBay. Really?

Geoff 37:40

Yeah. Well, okay, used. I reckon if you ask my phone how many hours I spend on eBay. It would be eBay. It would be eBay because I've just got searches set up for synths and things like that. Right.

Tom 37:50

And even Lincoln City Football Club shirts. My hit rate of buying something to browsing is probably an infinitesimally small number, but just the buzz of like, oh, what's up? Oh, what price is it? That's my probably the thing that I do the most.

Geoff 38:04

Not reverb? That's the other one, isn't it? That's a good one.

Tom 38:06

No, something in me says eBay. If you log into eBay 1500 times a day, you'll find the um the Yamaha CS80 for a 50 quid.

Favourite Chord and the E Major Debate

Geoff 38:14

Yeah. Alright, one last question. What's your favourite chord? And feel free to explain.

Tom 38:22

Oh, okay. Um E major.

Geoff 38:24

E major!?

Tom 38:25

Yeah.

Geoff 38:25

Just straight E major.

Tom 38:26

No, it's the context, isn't it? I'm just trying to be um there's no such thing. In the context of C major, E major as a way of getting to F. I'm just trying to justify E major. E major, listeners, sounds like that.

Geoff 38:41

Yeah.

Tom 38:41

That can't be anyone's favourite chord, can it? But if if you were playing Don't Look Back in Anger by Noel Gallagher, and you went. Isn't the E major just amazing there? Isn't that just amazing? Yeah. Just something that like lifts, it just lifts the whole that way. So yeah, in in C major going to a...

Geoff 39:04

Just tell us what those chords were in that progression so people in case people.

Tom 39:08

I'll tell you a lovely um a lovely little anecdote that may or may not make the cut. I was in a pub in King's Cross, past midnight with our friend Simon Lea, the drummer, who is wonderful fun, but quite no nonsense at times. And there was a there was a guy there playing Don't Look Back in Anger, and he was going, he was playing like this. A minor, and then he went G. Like that, right? And yeah, so so he instead of in that lovely bit that goes from so sorry to tell you the chords, it's C, G, A minor, E, F, G,

Geoff 39:52

yeah, that little raise up from E to F.

Tom 39:55

Glorious. Yeah. Um, but this guy, for all of his many attributes, which was you know, huge catalogue of songs to sing and a very keen voice and a very loud acoustic guitar, he hadn't clocked the E major in that piece, and so he was going, which is fine, it sounds fine, doesn't it? But I was furious, and and we we were both, we'd both been drinking for and I was Simon had to talk me off the ledge, basically. I was like, I need to tell him, I need to go and tell him for his own good. He's gonna carry he's gonna come here tomorrow and play it like that. He's gonna carry it until somebody intervenes, and he's gonna love knowing that he could play E there, and it'll sound even better. This is win-win, everybody wins, everybody wins. And Simon's like, you have to just stay here, in five minutes' time. He'll be playing something else, and we'll all have forgotten about it. And um, yeah. Yes.

Goodbyes and How to Subscribe

Geoff 40:55

Oh, that's brilliant. That's a lovely story, yeah. Okay, I think on that bombshell, I think we get to that. We should uh say goodbye. Thanks so much for doing it. It's been been really great to catch up again.

Tom 41:07

It's been a pleasure.

Geoff 41:08

And um I'll see you very soon.

Tom 41:10

Yeah.

Geoff 41:10

Okay. Bye, cheers.

Announcement 41:13

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