Arrival in Hampstead With John

Geoff 0:01

Hello, Podcats. Geoff Gascoyne here. This morning I'm in Hampstead, and I'm going to see Mr. John Etheridge, who's a bit of a legend of the British jazz scene. Guitar player, racon teur, some would say. Band leader of Soft Machine. And we're going to have a little ramble about his history. I'm sure he's got loads to say. He's a great talker. He loves to have a good chat. So here we go.

Announcement 0:45

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Geoff 0:54

Mr. John Etheridge, how are you?

John 0:56

I'm very well, thank you, Geoff, and it's lovely to see you. Thank you for coming over to my little humble abode.

Geoff 1:02

Oh thank you. Thank you. You're in a lovely little enclave of Hampstead, aren't you?

John 1:06

Yeah, well I am, yes.

Geoff 1:07

Like a little village out there.

John 1:08

We're all in tiny little places, but it's nice to be uh right near Hampstead Heath.

Geoff 1:13

You lived here a long time?

John 1:14

Uh I've lived in this area for 47 years from when it was very affordable back in the day. It's got a bit posh, you know. But I say I'm one minute from Hampstead Heath, which is great.

From Hank Marvin to Jazz Rock

Geoff 1:22

Indeed. Right, so shall we start by talking about how you got started in jazz? Yeah. How you become a jazz musician?

John 1:29

Well, my arc is a bit different, I guess, because so we've got to go back to 1960 when I started. Hank Marvin, of course. You'll find that anybody of my generation, it was Hank Marvin. So I saw Hank Marvin with his red Stratocaster. So I had to have a guitar. It's the look, you see. This is the perennial, the perennial appeal of the guitar, is the look. And that look was incredible. He had Buddy Holly glasses.

Geoff 1:52

I remember.

John 1:52

So I tried to ruin my eyes, so I needed Buddy Holly glasses, but never managed it. So that was that. And so I had a band playing that music at school, and um the rhythm guitar player, his dad, my dad was a amateur, but a very good level Teddy Wilson pianist. And his dad was a good level, what they used to call dance band guitarist. Great big guitar, used to sit there with his pipe stuck in his mouth, going ronk, chunk, chunk, chonk, chonk like that. So I used to go around to his house, and the and the old man said, Well, listen to all this rubbish, you should listen to Django Reinhardt. And I'm going, What the hell? So anyway, he put on this record, you know, and it was like I just couldn't believe it, 1963.

Geoff 2:29

What age were you when you first?

John 2:31

15, 14. What's that? You know, it was just on every level. First of all, there was a kind of speed level, it was just like nobody plays guitar like that. That's incredible. So became a kind of Django man, and I'd heard loads of jazz from my dad, which I kind of liked, but it didn't blow me away. My dad was trying to turn me on to Charlie Christian, but I wasn't totally convinced. I think partly because of the tone. But then unfortunately for the jazz scene, Clapton and Hendrix came along in 65, 66, and that was like, what? Although I was always keen on jazz. I mean, I but when I got to university in 1967, all my friends had gone in for this Soft Machine and Hendrix and Clapton and stuff. And then I heard John McLaughlin's Extrapolation, and that turned me right back into because I thought, now, this is jazz with balls, you know. And I remember the first review of John McLaughlin in The Melody Maker, and it said there's this young guitarist, John McLaughlin. His technique may not be the best, but nobody can deny the power of his solos. So when I heard Extrapolate, it was like, wow!

Geoff 3:33

So you were kind of stuck between the jazz and rock, and you were searching for something that I bridge the two.

John 3:39

Yes, always. Actually, that's a totally on the money point. Because I remember sitting with a mate of mine in 67, 68 saying, I want to blend Jeff Beck and Django Reinhardt. You know, well, when I finally got into the jazz scene, everybody thought, oh, he's a ro you're a rock player, really, playing jazz. And then, of course, in the rock scene, it's like, oh, you're a jazzer.

Geoff 3:56

You know, it's funny you should say that because I got exactly the same thing. I started out in the pop business. Oh, yeah. And the jazzers thought I was a pop guy, and the pop guy thought I was a jazz guy.

John 4:04

Exactly.

Geoff 4:05

So you're kind of somewhere in the middle, aren't you?

John 4:06

Absolutely, and you're stuck. And and and and somehow, well, hopefully, you've certainly been totally accepted, and uh hopefully one gets accepted in the end. But when I started like on the jazz scene properly, which was quite late in my life, you turn up with a couple of pedals, they go,

Geoff 4:22

Well, there's still an element of that in the jazz scene, though, isn't there?

John 4:24

Yeah, there is a bit, yeah. There is a bit.

Geoff 4:27

Yeah, particularly with something like electric bass, for example.

John 4:29

Oh god, yes,

Geoff 4:30

people don't accept electric bass as a real snobbery about electric bass.

John 4:33

Yeah. Because I first knew you as an electric bass player. An electric bass player, yeah, in the 80s. Yeah, fusion the electric bass player.

Geoff 4:40

That's right. We um digress. We did digress!

John 4:42

We got to a John McLaughlin, I'm at 68, 69, listening to In a Silent Way at university. And that's so I then I came back in 1970, you know, the scene was so rocking. You can't yeah, anybody, well even your age listening, listening, realize how much gigs, money, everything. So I started working, and because I it was right fortunate for me because by 1970, everybody had enough of the Eric Clapton thing, which everybody was doing beautifully by then. More than Hendrix, you know, Hendrix was a sort of phenomenon, but Clapton was the influence. So I'd go to these auditions, which you got from the back of The Melody Maker. Buy The Melody Maker on Thursday and he'd say, We want guitarists want it, blah blah blah. It'd be very cruel to time wasters, must travel.

Geoff 5:25

Yes.

John 5:25

So I used to go to those, and and and I think because by guitarist 18, which might be me, they just thought, how can we decide between these people all playing the same way? And I had my sort of jazz rocky, semi-McLaughlin, semi-everything already kind of going. And so I got immediately started getting tons and tons and tons of gigs. Uh, interesting enough, the first person I met, proper jazz person I met in 1971, was Art Theman. And he was really nice to me. He said, I really like what you're doing. He said, There are not many people doing anything much. There was another thing that worked really in my favour. Things were starting like the Mahavishnu Orchestra in 71 and so. People who didn't really like the guitar thought they ought to have a guitar. And there really wasn't many people around to fill the bill.

Geoff 6:11

I guess in those days you weren't playing, you weren't playing B, Bebop, you were playing kind of vamps and odd meters and stuff.

John 6:16

Yes, exactly right. Right, spot on. And we had the nine and the five and the seven. You solo over the top.

Geoff 6:22

And just go, just one chord that goes on for ever?

John 6:24

And the amazing thing was, if you know, you might easily get a big advance for a record company for doing that!

Geoff 6:30

Fantastic.

John 6:31

Incredible. Anyway, so yes, that's kind of what I was doing. And then I finally got in with this guy called Darryl Way. He was The Melody Maker audition. Usual thing. No breadheads will be cruel to time wasters.

Geoff 6:44

That was a great phrase, wasn't it? No breadheads.

John 6:47

No breadheads will be very cruel to time wasters.

Geoff 6:49

I haven't heard that for years.

John 6:51

No breadheads need apply. Oh yes. Own transport essential. He was he'd left a quite a famous band called Curved Air, who had some hits and things, and he was putting his own band together. Because I was really hardcore then. I had a little amp and was playing with a real sort of clean, not not a big jazz guitar sound, but a sort of clean sound. And but the important thing was the tiny amp, no pedals.

Geoff 7:17

Right. But pedals were a new thing though, right?

John 7:20

They were a new thing, but you weren't meant to use them. I remember I remember I bought a bit of a distortion pedal, and I said to the guy at the shop, don't tell Alan, Alan Holdsworth, don't tell Alan Holdsworth, because he'll laugh, you know, he'll scoff at me because the thing was you didn't use a pedal. You got the sound from the guitar and your amp.

Geoff 7:35

Talent booster, I call used to call it.

John 7:37

Well, I still do. You know, when I'm putting them up and say, Oh, George, I said it's talent boosters, you know. And and and and actually, you see, tone, which is of course an issue for saxophone players and trumpeters, the tone of the room was a big deal for me because I just had the guitar into an amplifier. And I remember all the rooms we used to play in in England, I knew what the sound was, and we'd be going off to Barbarella's in Birmingham, all red carpet. The sound was dead as a doornail.

Geoff 8:05

Right. Okay.

John 8:06

And I couldn't get any resonance in my sound and everything. Of course, now you just put on another boot. Another talent master. Yeah. You put on something else, you know, a bit more reverb, a bit more delay, and you can get a sound, at least that makes you able to play. I mean, you get to a point, you know, I mean, I'm sure horn players have this. You get into a room and you just sing,

Geoff 8:25

it's the same with bass, double bass. Double bass is awful sometimes, yeah.

John 8:30

Yeah. I mean that Ronnie's is dead, isn't it?

Geoff 8:32

Yeah, but I I meant it's great for bass. Ronnie's dead.

John 8:34

Is it good for bass?

Geoff 8:34

It's great for bass, yeah. I mean, dead rooms are perfect for bass. Yeah. It's the it's when the resonance starts, the big halls, that's when you have problems with the halls.

Standards Theory and Finding Your Voice

John 8:41

Oh, because of the other way around. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Geoff 8:44

Anyway, so can we get back to uh learning jazz and standards? What about jazz standards?

John 8:50

Ah, right, this is really interesting for me because I learnt quite a lot of jazz standards from my dad. When I got this weird offer to join Stéphane Grappelli, I actually knew quite a lot of the tunes. And I'd always played standards for practice, always. I first started playing at proper jazz standards gigs, but when I started playing in 80, 81, just before the Real Book started becoming common, you had to learn the tunes. And I was plunged in the deep end of standards playing because suddenly uh at the beginning of the 80s, I really not got any work, and and I was because I played with Grappelli, I was accepted on the jazz scene. So, what's interesting about this is not only was I learning standards, I was also learning the theory at the age of 32, 33.

Geoff 9:34

Because up to that point you you just played by it. Bypassed it. Okay. Yeah, right.

John 9:38

More or less. I mean, I hadn't completely bypassed it. I'd been studying Joe Pass and everything, so I did know something. Certainly, I think my playing in the 70s was more or less semi-coped, semi-worked out, semi-earish, getting by, semi-bluff. And I remember about 81, 82, I was doing the Bull's Head and Chu Chi Mo Chan, the bass player, turned up and he had this book, the Real Book. So he was not having to learn any standards. Up until then, you really didn't have to know your tunes. The bass player Grappelli's band in Australia taught me Stella, taught me On Green Dolphin Street. So then, of course, I started properly working, I'd say, during the early 80s on my theory. So what I did, I was sort of fudged my already style into a kind of, and I still don't feel that my so-called Bebop playing is really boner. You know, when I hear somebody like Louis Stewart or Colin Oxley now or Dave Cliff, I think, well, these people are.

Geoff 10:34

But surely you're you're a product of your of where you came from.

John 10:38

I'm like Schofield. I mean, Schofield is the nearest thing to me, uh, psychologically, I'd say. It's a sort of kind of mixture of bluesy, rocky, jazz, and particularly he's a scale man. I mean, that's this is a very important thing, you know, because Joe Pass and all those guys are chord tone men. We don't want to be too technical, but you know, Schofield and people.

Geoff 10:56

I don't mind technical.

John 10:57

Oh, you don't mind technical.

Geoff 10:58

You really like technical.

John 10:59

Well, it's chord, it's it's it's chord tones, basically. You know, it took me ages to work that out. You know, Django, uh Django up until George Benson is chord tones. And there's a way of playing the guitar that that makes chord tones easier. And I grew up in scales, so I knew scales. I mean, the giveaway for me is when I bought Kind of Blue. And I'm reading the liner note, and it talks about this revolutionary concept of playing scales. I'm going, what? But it's all scales, isn't it? And I hadn't realized that, you know, before that, it's chord tones. I mean, Bebop is chord tones with passing notes.

Geoff 11:32

Yeah.

John 11:33

Uh, even though it might sound like scales, it's not. And Joe Pass never consciously plays a scale. Uh, it's chord tones with passing notes.

Geoff 11:40

Right.

John 11:40

You know, so you join it up and it sounds like a scale, but it's not actually consciously a scale.

Geoff 11:44

Right. So you're getting into modes, aren't you? That's where we're talking about.

John 11:46

Well, exactly. Well, we talk about modes. And it's all the same notes but thought of in a different way.

Geoff 11:51

Do you want to pick us a tune for us?

John 11:52

Well, we were going to do Killer Joe.

Geoff 11:54

Excellent. Right, so here comes Killer Joe. You're going to play two choruses there's an eight bar introduction.

John 11:58

Sounds brilliant.

Geoff 12:00

Here we go. How was that? For you?

John 14:16

That was fine. Yes, enjoyed that. Lovely.

Tony Williams Miles and Time Feel

Geoff 14:19

Yeah. I've got some questions. A series of questions. Question number one Have you got a favourite album?

John 14:32

So I mean I did love Extrapolation In a Silent Way, one of my favourite all-time albums. I actually um name drop, played, did a rec recorded with Tony Williams. He said told me how much he hated that album.

Geoff 14:45

So what tell us about recording with Tony Williams?

John 14:47

Uh well it was uh a violinist called Didier Lockwood, French guitar violinist.

Geoff 14:52

You've got what is it you're playing with violin players?

John 14:55

I don't know. I don't know what that is. It it's nothing, I don't even

Geoff 14:58

You play with one and then the other one here.

John 15:00

Maybe that's it. I mean, certainly after I played with Stéphane, Nigel Kennedy used to come and play with us. So I played with him from that. But anyway, Didier Lockwood. So he's making his first solo album, very ambitious young guy, and I'd met him through Stéphane Grappelli. And uh so he used to come and play on the gig sometimes. So he had Tony Williams, Niels Pedderson, Gordon Beck, and John McLaughlin lined up for his album.

Geoff 15:23

Wow.

John 15:23

And John McLaughlin dropped out, so he phoned me and said, uh, in man, you come and play. And I went, Oh, what? I'm depping for John McLoughlin. Then it was two days recording, and I missed the first day because I had a gig with Grappelli. Anyway, so I get up in the morning here, six o'clock in the morning, to fly to Stuttgart with my electric guitar that hadn't really played, and I arrive at the studio. As they open the door, they're going, Tony Williams, Niels Penderson, Gordon Beck, Didier Lockwell.

Geoff 15:53

Playing Giant Steps?

John 15:55

And I thought, I'm just going to turn around and walk off. But he looked at me and said, Oh, don't worry, this is just quartet. I thought he was going to say, Unpack your guitar. Come on, man.

Geoff 16:05

See what you've got. Jeez.

John 16:08

But I do remember the first track I did with him. And it comes to my solo and I start soloing. Because it's all live, you know, and I've only been there about 10 minutes. So I'm starting soloing. And I look over and I go, bloody hell, that's Tony Williams. And everything just like, uh. And they wouldn't let me do it again. It doesn't sound that dreadful. It sounds, you know, a lot of guitar soloing in the 70s in the sort of semi-jazz rock vein sounds is not really very coherent. So it sounds like one of those sort of solos.

Geoff 16:45

Fantastic.

John 16:46

Anyway, so we were talking about The Silent Way. He said, I hate u that album. Of course, you know, you know. I mean, I that album just absolutely, when I heard it, I thought the whole thing, the whole thing with the three keyboard players doing, and I love a thing that has no changes but has chords. I mean, I fell in love with the whole fourths thing completely around that time. So you're doing all these sort of, you know, there's a pedal point and you're doing all these weird fourths that that don't really, it's like a sort of snake pit of sounds.

Geoff 17:20

Nice.

John 17:21

And it's Joe Zawinal, Herbie Hancock, and Chick- is it Herbie? It's totally Chick Corea, I think Herbie. And they're all not allowed to do much. That's great because Miles doesn't let them do anything. So that's why Tony hated it. Because he felt he wasn't allowed to, you know, splash out and be Tony Williams and speed up like mad.

Geoff 17:40

There you go.

John 17:41

That's always the justification. If you're a speeder-upper, you go, No, Tony Williams.

Geoff 17:46

Tony Williams. Yeah, actually, I spoke to Ira Coleman, actually. I went for a drink with the bass player Ira Coleman who played with Tony a lot. And he he talked about that actually. He said, Yeah, Tony would different sections of the tune would be at different tempos. Yes. Um, you know, you get to the bridge and all of a sudden you just go, whoa, whoa, whoa, and then you come back again.

John 18:03

Well, exactly. Which is like musical.

Geoff 18:06

I guess, yeah.

John 18:07

If you're used to it, you'll find it quite uh yeah. I I I wouldn't like

Geoff 18:12

I don't think I'd like that very much.

John 18:14

No. A, I wouldn't, I'm sure as a bass player, you wouldn't enjoy playing with Tony. You'd enjoy playing with Elvin.

Geoff 18:22

Yeah.

John 18:22

Jack, probably, but you I don't think you'd enjoy playing with it. Ron Carter apparently used to freak out every so often and just throw down the bass and go, I can't cope with this anymore.

Geoff 18:31

Yeah. And and um it seems it seems quite selfish to me if someone does that, you know, it's it doesn't seem considerate on your.

John 18:40

Well, I have, I mean, my impression was not of a particularly popular or considerate guy. But have the bottle just to do that and not feel self-conscious and just go, well, this is what I do. And of course, this is the the the often think when people talk about AI, I think about clicks and what's happened with the click. The click was meant to be the servant, help you. Then it becomes the master, and everybody has to be able to play spot on the click. I remember somebody, Richard Harvey, talking about um some famous Russian drummer, he said, he's so amazing. You lose the click because he's so perfectly with the click.

Geoff 19:18

Yeah.

John 19:18

So that becomes the mark of a great drummer that you play perfectly with the click.

Geoff 19:22

Well, okay, question number two Is there a musician alive or dead that you would like to play with?

John 19:27

Oh god, these these are these are the these questions. You should warn me in advance. I would have loved to have played in Miles because I thought I would be good in Miles's band.

Geoff 19:36

Yeah.

John 19:36

Miles had those kind of guitar players. He kind of liked them. They're sort of in-between guitar players. He didn't really like a proper jazz guitarist, and he didn't like a proper guitar.

Geoff 19:45

Which is what we've just already mentioned, yeah.

John 19:48

The in-between guys. So I always thought, oh, I'd be love to play with them. Not not every I'd love to play with millions of people, but I thought I'd be good with Miles. It would suit me.

Geoff 19:57

Yeah.

John 19:57

And I'd get on with him because he liked that all those guys he liked, like McLaughlin and Schofield, particularly, he's Mike Stern to a certain extent. They're not neat and tidy, yeah. Uh and they're but they're a bit leary, a bit loud. So I've always thought I'd be, you know, I was always, you know.

Geoff 20:16

Are you still a bit leary now now that you're a mature?

John 20:19

Yeah, I tend to be. I can't help it really. It's just my my character. And of course, in the Soft Machine, you know, yeah, very, very. But even when I do uh sort of standards gigs, I remember one of those Jazz in London gigs that I'd never done. And I finally phoned up the bloke who said, You've never booked me. He said, Oh, yeah, but what would you do? Would you do rock and roll? I said, No, no, mate, I'll do a, I'll, I'll have um, I think I I said, I'll book John Donaldson, was it Klein, Dale? or somebody, and and Tristan Mayo. He said, Oh, that's all right then.

Geoff 20:46

Yeah.

John 20:47

I said, I'll book those people. Okay, right. But I couldn't resist taking a couple of pedals. So I played the game, yeah, and it was standards, it was really good, and I really enjoyed it, but I, you know, tweaked the sound a bit.

Geoff 21:02

Have some of that, son.

John 21:04

Just a little bit. Just a little bit.

Career Highs and Key Partnerships

Geoff 21:06

Yeah. Right, next question. What would you say was the highlight of your career?

John 21:10

Well, there have been a few highlights, but the early highlight was definitely playing at the Albert Hall with Stephan Grappelli in 1978, 79. It was like a pinnacle, and everybody was there, and my parents, and everybody was there, and it was like a uh it was fantastic, high moment.

Geoff 21:28

Was that the biggest gig you'd ever done at that point in your life?

John 21:30

Yes, in a way, and it was televised and everything, and it's up on YouTube actually, and it's one of the ones of mine that's got the most hits because it's a sort of long acoustic guitar solo with Grappelli. So that was a side. Then there was sort of doldrums in the 80s, which was, although I was playing a lot of jazz gigs, everything was somehow unfocused. I was just sort of playing around with everybody. It was great. I was learning stuff and everything, but the 80s was pretty miserable for people of my generation anyway. Then I suppose there were the highlights. Came another lot of highlights came later on, like um, you know, with John Williams when we did a uh live album in Dublin and things like that. And um,

Geoff 22:09

Did you know John before that?

John 22:10

Well, kind of, just socially around Hampstead. I mean, this happened, I think, because a friend of mine, I did the Grappelli tribute thing, Sweet Chorus. And I think this friend of mine gave John uh the album or something. He so he was aware of me, but then he phoned me up and said, Let's do something. I said, I can't play with John Williams. How can I play with John Williams, the world's greatest classical guitarist? But he had a very clear picture of what he wanted me to do. So, first of all, we had a band doing African stuff, and then quite soon after that, we had a duo, which went on for about seven or eight years, which took quite a lot of organizing because his frames of reference completely different. You know, classical musicians are in a different world.

Geoff 22:53

So he presumably doesn't improvise.

John 22:55

No, not at all. Absolutely not at all. That's the rule. First rule, I don't improvise, he says.

Geoff 22:59

Okay.

John 23:00

And actually, occasionally he does, but I would never draw his attention to it because he'd go, No, no, no.

Geoff 23:06

Right.

John 23:07

Um, we have certain pieces where he he would actually

Geoff 23:10

So just give me an example of what uh a tune you might play together and how you'd organise it.

John 23:14

There was a tune, let's say, called Triangular Situations, okay? It's a Cape Verdean tune, quite simple. The slightly frustrating thing for me was he's quite capable of playing the whole thing himself. But he'd say, Well, you play the melody line.

Geoff 23:27

Okay.

John 23:27

So I'd play the melody line, he'd he'd pull off his third finger and play accompaniment, and I'd play the melody line and do an improvised solo. He would also do solos, but he'd write them down. He'd say, I'm gonna write out my improvisation.

Geoff 23:40

So he'd composed his solo.

John 23:42

He composed his improvisation so much. So we did a lot quite a lot of these African guitar tunes, so they work fine. Then we had some pieces written for us. A guy called Ben Verder wrote this. This is you'd love this as a jazzer. So basically, this guy, Ben Verder, writes this incredibly complicated, atonal-ish sort of piece, right? I just get the score. No tape, nothing. Just the score. So I'm trying to figure out, you know, pick it, pick through it and no chords, no, nothing, nothing,

Geoff 24:15

just notation?

John 24:16

Just notation.

Geoff 24:17

Right.

John 24:17

And sort of arbitrary uh contemporary stuff, you know, which if it was an improvisation, you go, you're fine, but it's you've got to play what's written. And trying to get it in your head, in your ear is like really difficult. And of course I go around and see him, he goes, bring out the part and play his part, just read it like a piano player, you know. And I always used to think that if I had a rehearsal with John, I'd rehearse myself for two hours before I got to John's for the because you know, I I I

Geoff 24:48

did you feel intimidated by the other thing.

John 24:49

Yeah, I did, I did, but he's he's he's A, he's a really good bloke, and he appreciated what I did. Yeah. He liked the kind of improvisational jazz thing. Obviously, he's not impressed by any of the any technical things. No, but he he they you know, people like him like like this idea of improvisational things, and um, yeah, I was intimidated, and uh uh, but he's not intimidating, no, and also he knew what I could do. I mean, when I first met him, I thought, well, is he gonna want me to play classical duets with him? That's hopeless. I'll never do so um, but such a good bloke, and also such a fan of sort of jazz guitar and guitar and and all guitars, and so he really liked what I did in a way, you know. I mean, I think some some of it would annoy him a bit, I mean, because he he's very precise, you know, and but he didn't seem to mind imprecision. I think he took that in it, you know, because he was really, really precise. I think he quite valued sort of off the wallness, you know, not that I was totally off the wallness.

Geoff 25:53

Well, he just respected the fact that you could actually improvise that's the bottom line.

John 25:57

Exactly. But I mean he's the he's he's the in charge. I mean when we go abroad, I mean people know me here, but you go to America or something, and he'd insist we got equal billing. Fantastic, you know. You know, nobody, you know, it's John Williams and who is this guy? you know.

Geoff 26:12

Wow, that's incredible.

John 26:13

And it was fantastic. We did tours all over the place. I mean, he is a really great guy, really, because you know, like all of us we've worked with, but some of them who aren't on a personal, all of them are great musicians, but some on a personal level are not so

Geoff 26:28

incredible. Um, right, next question. What would you say is your musical weakness?

John 26:36

Oh, well, there's plenty of them. I mean, I think, I think over the years, probably the time thing, really, I think, I think uh I've really worked on that in the last few years, you know. Because I have to tell you, talking talking of weakneses, it's the first ever jazz, proper jazz gig I did. I'd done Stéphane Grappelli, but that's okay. So, and if anything went slightly strange, Stéphane would just turn around and stop playing. So he was used to a completely rong, chonk, rigid time thing. So I got Michael Garrick phoned me up and said, Will you come and do a gig? Michael Garrick, me, Chris Lawrence, and AJ. Yeah, Alan Jackson, sorry. It was at the 100 Club. Right, Stella. So he starts, and and Chris is up the dusty end, and AJ's going, I don't know where I am, I don't know what's going on. Luckily, my harmonic ear was particularly then was pretty sharp. Yeah. And I just busked off the chords I could hear. And and kept my, you know, well, not a smile, but kept a look on my face like I know what I'm doing. And the whole gig was like that. I don't know where I am. Does looking back, I said, does because AJ was just playing cymbal. No hits. And we did have 40 minutes or something, and at the end, Tim Whitehead came up and said, Where was the one? What? Do I know? You know, Herbie Hancock always says, I love getting lost, find your way back.

Geoff 28:05

That's true, yeah.

John 28:06

Because that's confidence. When you've got no confidence, you're going, I'm playing with John Taylor.

Geoff 28:09

It's a bit different, though, if you're a soloist and you have chords, someone accompanying you. Well, if you're a bass player,

John 28:14

oh god, you've had it.

Geoff 28:16

And you and you get to your solo and everyone drops out.

John 28:18

Oh, of course they do. That's why I always say to women, marry a bass player. Because bass players learn to be supportive and unappreciated. You know.

Geoff 28:29

So that's your musical weakness, right?

John 28:30

I would say.

Geoff 28:31

Okay, so the next question: do you ever get nervous on stage?

John 28:34

Uh not generally, but various times. I mean, when John Williams and I did the live album, he decided that we were going to do a duo and we were going to do a live album in front of a thousand people at the guitar festival in Dublin. So Paco Peña was there, Manuel Barrueco was there, all sorts of people were there. I did say something like, do we have to do this live? He said, It'll be fine, it'll be fine, it'll be fine. But I do find that that generally, I mean, if I have time off and I go back, I don't think I'm a natural exhibitionist, really. People think I am, but I'm I don't think I am. And I think the giveaway, I don't know how you were during lockdown, I really had no compulsion to go on Facebook and play stuff and be seen by people.

Geoff 29:17

No.

John 29:18

I mean, I'm not knocking or judging at all, but the people who are really are extroverts, they were meaningfully,

Geoff 29:24

they struggled.

John 29:25

They struggled.

Geoff 29:25

They needed, they needed an audience,

John 29:27

they needed an audience, exactly. And I think actually those kind of people, if they're really talented as well, are the people who are going to succeed. Pat Metheny, you know, immensely talented, always, and also wants to be out there, you know, if you've got that combination.

Geoff 29:42

You've also you've also played with Pat Metheny, haven't you?

John 29:44

I I have played with Pat Metheny. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In fact, we're, you know, we we we're fairly good, um, you know, I see him when he comes over.

Geoff 29:52

Right.

John 29:53

But I played him that one day, yes. One day, my one day with Pat Metheny, it's my day with Pat Metheny. Right. We played three or four sort of promo gigs.

Geoff 30:03

He strikes me as someone who's who knows what he wants. And absolutely. And you have to do it his way, right?

John 30:09

Absolutely. Yeah, yes. I knew instinctively that I wouldn't uh be soloing, and I was quite happy about that. They told me what they wanted.

Geoff 30:17

He didn't give you a solo?

John 30:18

He wants you to play nylon classical guitar and back him up, okay, basically, and that's what I did. Right. And I was very happy to do that because you know, you spend the day with a guy like that. I mean, he's so um I think Taylor Swift must be like that. You get every combination of talent, character, personality, melds to produce almost the perfect individual. In other words, you've got all it takes to be successful,

Geoff 30:44

and organizational skills.

John 30:47

Everything, every kind of skill. And if you if you're like that, you're unstoppable. You know, most of us have got good bits and then bits that that the f that war internally with our other bits and are conflicted and over this and conflicted over that. But if you're like that, you are really well adapted to succeed really well in the world. I mean, I went to his solo thing a couple of what is it last year, and it's masterful, you know. You know, it's not about chops. I mean, if you talk about his classical chop, I mean he's you know, his his finger style technique, it's not, you know.

Geoff 31:25

It's not John Williams, is it?

John 31:26

No, no, but he, you know, he he he's he's got it so organized, he's so musical, he's got so many ideas, puts it all together, and the whole show sort of developed. Started off just classical on the on the nylon guitar, and he was sort of improvising chords and things. I thought, wow, this is hardcore. Is he gonna do this for two hours? And of course, no, no, and gradually he brought in some standards, then gradually brought in some looping, and then there were all sorts of things under wrapped. Then it turns out then he got by the end he's got the Orchestrian on, about five loops. Absolutely brilliant in terms of architecture, and and absolutely brilliant. So he's on another level, actually.

Geoff 32:08

He is, yeah. Yeah. Okay, so have you ever been starstruck?

John 32:12

Oh god, yeah. I'm again I'm dreadfully starstruck, still am.

Geoff 32:16

Really?

John 32:17

First of all, I I I suppose uh, you know, some of the people I played with, I mean, we've talked about John Williams, but I mean, when I first played with Grappelli, because I was a Django Reinhardt freak, I used to lie in my bed when I was 15 listening to Django records, thinking, Stéphane Grappelli's still alive. I might, I might get to meet him or get to see him play or something. Yeah, and then suddenly, out of the blue, this was totally out of the blue how I got this job. It was absolutely bizarre. You know, fusion guitar, jazz rock guitarist suddenly playing with Stéphane Grappelli. And I thought, wow, I'm pinching myself. But I mean, I remember looking at him uh the first couple of gigs and I think, I can't believe I'm I'm sitting on stage with Stéphane Grappelli. It can't be real, you know. It's like it's like your dream, everybody should have that in their life. The dream comes true.

Geoff 33:04

Yeah, sure, yeah.

Quickfire Questions - Offstage Life

John 33:05

You know.

Geoff 33:07

We've got some other questions which are not musical related now.

John 33:10

Go on then.

Geoff 33:10

Starting with what's your favourite sandwich?

John 33:13

Ah, well, I'd probably say uh Wensley dale, Carrot and Chutney from M&S. That's a really good sandwich.

Geoff 33:23

Okay.

John 33:23

My mum used to make the most fabulous egg sandwiches with a bit of Marmite.

Geoff 33:28

Oh, that's a good combo.

John 33:29

Homemade, yeah, yeah, just a little bit of um, and then of course I like I do like the sort of hummus red pepper sort of uh organic-y sandwiches. But if I if I stop at the M&S on the motorway, I always get the Wensleydale carrot and chutney.

Geoff 33:47

Excellent, excellent. Right. Do you have a favourite movie?

John 33:50

For years I'd have said Duel, which was Steven Spielberg's first film.

Geoff 33:54

That's where the trucks and then uh

John 33:56

because I mean, in a way, it's a sort of uh a nerdy reason. It's because you you I'm just bowled over how, with nothing, with no budget, no actors, nothing at all, he creates this amazing tension and it's so compact. You know, you can tell from that, you know, what the quality of that guy is, you know, the mixture of visual genius and the common touch, you know.

Geoff 34:22

Sure, yeah.

John 34:23

But also, when I was a kid, uh Bonnie and Clyde, when I was 19, I watched Bonnie and Clyde about eight, nine times. I knew the whole script off by heart. What are you doing with my mummer's car, boy? Wait there, and she goes down, and then she starts nodding him and he pushes her off because he's not into sex. And she goes, You're advertising just dandy. Folks would never guess you don't have a thing to sell. And I I absolutely love that film. And and in 1967, that film, I mean it's all wrong. The the the kind of glorification of violence and us falling in love with these beautiful, violent people, and and the end, we were just stunned.

Geoff 34:58

Yeah,

John 34:59

they were machine gunned at the end. And it's run out and it's and it freezes, doesn't it? Yeah, uh we all me and my friend Nikki, we just sat in the cinema like this, couldn't move.

Geoff 35:09

So, um is do you have a favourite venue to play in?

John 35:12

Yeah, I would say my I've got my home in London is The Vortex, really. I love The Vortex. It's actually they've in terms of sound, they've improved it loads. And I've started The Vortex in 1988.

Geoff 35:25

When it used to be in Stoke Newington,

John 35:26

yeah, yeah, 88, I think. So I've been there for for how how many years is that? 38 years moving around. I Ronnie's, obviously, but I I mean I do Ronnie's with the Soft Machine a bit and all that. I do a lot at the Pizza, but I think probably uh uh uh in London, um The Vortex, in the sense of how I feel about it, and and all the volunteers there, and it's like kind of homey kind of thing for me.

Geoff 35:54

You've travelled obviously a lot. Do you have a favourite city that you like to go to?

John 35:58

Yeah, with the Soft Machine we did uh quite a lot of international, but we did Scandinavian tour. I love those cities, Copenhagen, Stockholm. I love them. Yeah, I love the Scandinavian way of life. There again, you see, uh one is supposedly an exhibitionist, and but these kind of withdrawn, quiet people and and these these um cities that are so beautiful and so civilized.

Geoff 36:24

And clean.

John 36:25

And clean.

Geoff 36:26

Yes, that's it, isn't it?

John 36:27

And everything works. And I got the train from Stockholm to Malmo, across the bridge. I mean, we did a load of tours of America USA in the last couple of years, and um well, you know, challenging. Great in its own way, exciting, you know. You go to New York. Part of the thing of like you play in New York, you feel I almost sometimes feel like doing these US tours. The reason for the doing is so you can put it up on Facebook. Here we are, you know, because so much about the USA when you're actually there, it's you know, okay. Play at the Baked Potato.

Geoff 36:59

Which incidentally is a is a bit of a dive, isn't it?

John 37:02

That's what I'm saying. Yeah. But we put out, we played the game, we put out an album live at the Baked Potato, like it's it's something, you know, uh, and uh, you know, it's that's uh it's the cachet of America, still, it's less than it was, but it's still a thing.

Geoff 37:18

Okay, when you travel, window or aisle?

John 37:20

Oh, bloody hell, mate. When I travel, now I'm not fussy, and and it's not really psychological fussiness, it's the f****g legs. Uh and

Geoff 37:30

Because you're quite a tall chap, aren't you?

John 37:32

So I'm afraid to say if we go any distance, I pay for myself for a business class ticket. Right, if I can. So I work out, okay. So as an example, Santiago, Chile. We're going to Santiago in Chile, right? It's a 20-hour flight. So they'll stump up the money for the economy flight. Say whatever it is, uh, 1800 quid. So I scrabble around and I find a business class ticket that takes me through Houston, which means you have to immigrate and emigrate, fill out an Esther, etc., all this crap. But it means that for not much more than 1800 I can get a business class to Santiago. Right. Because I can't sit in the seats. I can't get in. And I certainly for 20 hours. I mean

Geoff 38:19

But that's not always going to be economical, though, is it, to do that?

John 38:22

Well, I often lose money.

Geoff 38:24

Right. And you'd rather do that?

John 38:25

I'd rather I can't help it. I I it's really a thing. I really I find it impossible. Anything over four or five hours. So um exactly, it's not economical, no. But this one I had 12 hours in Houston Airport. But you've got the business lounge, so no, it's not economical, but it's got to be aisle. If it's not, if it's not anything else, it's aisle. Because then I can stick my

Geoff 38:47

stick one of your legs out, at least!

John 38:49

So you know, as I say, it's nothing to do with being fancy or or wanting better treatment. It's just about the space.

Geoff 38:55

Yeah, sure.

John 38:55

You know, I I don't bother with any other sort of ponsy travel. I'm quite happy. It's just I can't get my legs in.

Geoff 39:02

I went to America with Martin Drew once.

John 39:04

Oh my god.

Geoff 39:05

That's another story.

John 39:06

Sitting next to Martin Drew. No, no, no, no, no, no.

Geoff 39:10

I didn't sit next to him.

John 39:11

Oh, right. I bet you didn't.

Geoff 39:12

Okay, I've got two more questions.

John 39:13

Okay, go on.

Geoff 39:14

Two more questions and then we're done. Um, what's the most used app on your phone?

John 39:18

Most used app on my phone is let me. I will look at my phone and tell you what's the most used app. Uh the health app.

Geoff 39:26

The health app?

John 39:27

No, I use that a lot. Google Maps, you know, your app I use quite a lot.

Geoff 39:31

That's the right answer!

John 39:32

Yep. There you go. Your app is the most used app on my phone.

Favourite Chords, Soft Machine and Writing

Geoff 39:36

Right, okay. One last question, and you might need your guitar for this. Have you what's your favourite chord?

John 39:41

Ah! I'll tell you what.

Geoff 39:43

You can play us some lovely chords that we'd like.

John 39:47

I remembered the other day which I hadn't played for ages.

Geoff 39:53

Okay, and tell us the notes that tell us what's going on.

John 39:55

Okay, well that's E, G sharp, uh B, F sharp, D sharp.

Geoff 40:04

Yeah.

John 40:04

And it only works in that position, you see. You can't transpose it.

Geoff 40:08

And you're playing all the strings, right?

John 40:10

All the strings.

Geoff 40:11

All of the strings, gorgeous, yeah.

John 40:12

All the strings you are.

Geoff 40:14

Alright. Any other particular favourites that you have?

John 40:17

Uh particular favourite oh god, that's you know, favourite chord. I always like this one. Which is the Jim Hall chord, which he does on everything. So it's a it's a sharp ninth, but with a particular inversion. So if that's A sharp ninth, you've got C sharp G C E.

Geoff 40:37

And that's beautiful because it's it's lovely and easy, it goes straight away across the fretboard. Very easy across. Yes, nice.

John 40:44

You'll hear that all over all over Jim Hall. Yeah. And then of course, I love fourth chords. So we've got a pedal.

Geoff 40:58

Yeah.

John 41:06

I love all that stuff.

Geoff 41:07

Nice, nice.

John 41:08

You can do anything.

Geoff 41:09

We haven't really talked about Soft Machine very much, have we? Do you compose a lot for that?

John 41:14

I do for that, yeah.

Geoff 41:15

Do you have inspirations for composing of the channel?

John 41:17

Well, that's interesting. I was just talking to a friend of mine, script writer, and he said somebody he quoted some old bloke of a friend of his who said, throw it out and polish it up. In other words, the idea is spontaneous and then you polish it. And I find that I could start off a composition very easily with an idea. The difficult bit is putting it exactly, you know, and tying it all up so that it makes sense, you know. I mean, I can go just straight off. Oh, hang on, hang on.

Geoff 41:44

Reaching for his talent boosters. Wait, we're talent.

John 41:46

No, I just thought I do a little loop because um hang on a sec. Hang on, hang on. So you might loop okay, so you've got a little melody idea there.

Geoff 42:10

That's a good idea.

John 42:11

That's simple. Yeah. What always hangs me up is then you might get a few more, and then it's putting them together and then refining it. And that is where you go, oh, this is easy, this is great. Composing's wonderful. It's easy, it's easy, it's just like improvising. You do something, you start putting it together, and then the brainache starts. Although I've actually am a full-time member of the PRS, which means I've got a certain number of compositions. I think I've got like 250 compositions, but it's over 50 years. So I don't think of myself as a composer. I think of myself as an improviser.

Geoff 42:42

Yeah.

John 42:42

That's what I'm interested in. Always have been. And in fact, I used to be a fanatic. I mean, certain people I played with who'd play the same solos every night, I'd be so furious. I'd be boiling inside. You're cheating! It's cheating.

Geoff 42:56

Yeah.

John 42:57

People think you're a judgment, you're not, but I don't feel like that anymore. I mean, some people do play the same solos, and and that's the way they express themselves. But I don't like doing that.

Geoff 43:06

And in Soft Machine there's, for example, you obviously it's been together a long time, right?

John 43:11

Yeah.

Geoff 43:11

Are you kind of do you feel it is still evolving?

John 43:13

Oh god, yes. Your album is fantastic. I'm amazed. I pushed the last album, which had John Marshall on it, because I knew John was leaving us. We did a gig at Ronnie Scott's, and I looked at him, I thought, this is it. It was a way, there was a whole atmosphere about it, and the way he was playing, and it was like Ronnie Scott's was Ronnie's club is so important to John, he was like practically the house drummer in the 70s. And he was playing and he got himself up, he was really ill, and he got himself up to play the gig, and it was a great gig. I thought, let's please record. So I actually pushed that, and we did an album called Other Doors, which came out a couple of years ago. And John plays lovely on it, but the power's gone. So he left us and uh, you know, left the world, and uh uh, so we've got Asaf and Fred Baker and me and Theo, and it it's absolutely fantastic. I mean, I love being in a democratic band. It's the only one I've ever been in. I've been in some pseudo-democratic bands and I've led bands, and I've been a side man in, I'm quite happy to be a sideman, say, with Grappelli. But this is proper equality. Everybody contributes, everybody plays their arse off on stage. There's no, oh right, you're solo, I'll keep quiet. You know, it's like real, everybody goes for it. Asaf is a fanatic, which I like. I mean, he's absolutely um, he never stops practicing. Fred's amazing, as you know. I mean, Fred's Fred, amazing musician. And Theo is really great musician and also really on it. So, on the kind of organizational side of things. So he's really taken over all that. He's on promo videos and publicity this and publicity that.

Geoff 44:55

I had a lovely podcast with with Theo actually.

John 44:57

Yes, yes, I noticed you had. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.

Geoff 44:59

Very interesting guy.

John 45:00

I mean, he's it's marvellous. So it's a marvellous band, it's the best band I've ever been in, which is great when you're 70 bloody 8. That it's the best band you've ever been in.

Geoff 45:09

It's quite a rarity, I think, to have that kind of feeling in a band, isn't it? Whether you

John 45:14

bloody well is

Geoff 45:15

amazing.

John 45:15

And of course, the feeling in the Soft Machine in the 70s was awful. And when we reformed in 2004, it was it's always been good, but it's got in a way better better and better. And now, I mean, as a as as as musically, it's phenomenal. And I also am able to play in a way that I can only play in that context.

Geoff 45:34

And you are you only playing new music? Or are you playing?

John 45:37

Yeah, we we we've always got loads of new music. We do we do play some stuff from the past for continuity, but my rule with stuff from the past, and it kind of still is, although it's it's a bit more difficult to hold on to, is I'd never listened to the original. I mean, we're we uh for instance when Hugh Hopper was with us in the Soft Machine, uh, what was called then the Soft Machine Legacy, for some unknown reason. Hugh was a bass player, and he brought in a tune by Ratledge called Chloe and the Pirates. Great, lovely tune. It was just that the top line and some ideas of the chords, very vague ideas. So we did it, and I didn't go and research the old thing. And in fact, I'm not sure that I've ever heard the original. I know I think that's a I think that's the jazz way. I mean, classical people, rock people, they say that's that's sacrilege. You're meant to, you're meant to recreate the original. Uh as an example, the Django Reinhardt scene. Now, when I played with Grappelli, he didn't want me to try and play like Reinhardt. I didn't try and play like Reinhardt, he wasn't interested. So that museum thing, I have no interest in whatsoever. I love the old Soft Machine, but you see, one of the advantages for me in the Soft Machine, I know I was in it and Alan Holdswoth in it, but basically it was not a guitar band, it was a keyboard band. So most of the famous compositions were on keyboards. So if I did was doing them on guitar, they're immediately going to sound different. They were gonna sound fresh and new. We did a cruise once, and there was a late prog band called UK, which was Eddie Jobson, Alan Holdsworth, Bill Bruford, John Wetton. And this guy was recreating the exact, exact, and the guitarist, fantastic guitarist called Alex Machacek. Miserable as sin, because he had to play, not a single inflection of his own, to play all Holes of the Third exactly the same.

Geoff 47:24

But I mean there is merit in that, isn't there?

John 47:26

There's total merit in that. Because, you know, you know, obviously it's a classical musician kind of approach, isn't it, in some ways. It is, and Eddie Jobson was a classical musician. I mean, even when he was doing when Alan was doing the band in 77, he said, well, Eddie Jobson would work out his solo for the tour, and that would be his solo.

Geoff 47:41

Right. I think um you've probably got a magnet down your front now. It's probably fallen down there. There it is. I think I think on that on that bombshell, I think we'll say goodbye. I think we'll say thank you so much for your time.

John 47:59

Thank you, Geoff. That was great. It's it's very enjoyable.

Geoff 48:02

It's been a a a lovely morning, and um let's see yeah. Okay, all right, we'll say goodbye. And uh it's a it's a wrap.

Announcement 48:12

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