Driving to Meet a Bass Pro

Geoff 0:00

Hello, Podcats! Geoff Gasgoyne here. Hope you're well. Today I'm in the car and I'm driving to Surrey, to Banstead. I'm going to see a wonderful bass player, actually. We've only had one bass player before on the podcast. Phil Mulford is a world-renowned um electric bass player and double bass player, I believe. He's primarily known for his session work, his TV work, his film work, and general loads of really great electric bass playing. So I'm really looking forward to him. I've never I've never actually had seen him play live before. Because as a bass player myself, do I rarely ever hear other bass players? No, I don't. So here we go. If I get there in time, the traffic is quite bad at the moment, but um I'm really looking forward to talking to Phil. So, here we go.

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Geoff 1:13

Hi

Finding Bass by Default

Geoff 1:14

Phil, how are you?

Phil 1:15

I'm alright, Geoff. Thanks.

Geoff 1:16

Thanks for inviting me around to your studio.

Phil 1:18

Pleasure.

Geoff 1:18

We're surrounded by um a lot of basses here, some some beautiful cases and a beautiful double bass in the corner there. Uh, can we start talking about how you got started and what got you into bass in the first place?

Phil 1:28

Yeah. Band at school, and the bass was the only instrument left. So completely by default, you know, playing Beatles and a few original things. Did a little bit sort of school orchestra stuff, like a show at school or something, and then playing trumpet in one kid's big band. Some of the younger people there, because it was an all-ages thing, they played in a youth big band and there was no bass player. So I went on to that. And I'd not really done any reading on bass, even though I played piano.

Geoff 1:57

So hold on a minute, you say you played trumpet and piano

Phil 1:59

and piano.

Geoff 2:00

So which one came first?

Phil 2:01

First of all, played from about eight, I guess, or seven, played piano, and then played trumpet. The same as my brother, we both played trumpet and piano. That was kind of how the music education started. Dad was always been to music, and we had this guy called Herbie Slagers who was from Ceylon, and there's a picture of him over there. He was a bop trumpet player on Ceylon Radio, and he had nobody here. He came over on a boat. Dad and my uncle Trevor they befriended him. So all of a sudden, from having quite a sort of white English traditional, sort of classical listening palette for Dad, suddenly Herbie was taking them to see Ella and the Oscar Peterson Trio or Woody Herman's Herd, and they used to go to Ronnie's in Gerrard Street and see Tubby Hayes. So Dad's got all his programmes still, and that brought the jazz into the house. Then Herbie was like, You've got to play piano, and Dad played piano reasonably well as well. Then there was a good brass teacher at school, so both Andrew and I, my brother, we went to this guy, and then as I say, I was in the big band, and then it was like moving on to the bass guitar.

Geoff 3:03

Was there some kind of conflict between those instruments? Was there you did you have to choose between them at any point?

Phil 3:08

Well, the bass guitar won, obviously. The trumpet's quite physical. I think I did grade six or grade seven. I was doing a Hyden trumpet concerto, so I was pretty good, you know. But the bass guitar just seemed for me the way to go. And then I joined this youth big band. Some of the guys in the band were in a kind of band like Chicago, great band led by a guy called Dave Tipler. But some of the guys were like from Shaking Stevens' band and all that. I'm 15. I ended up joining that because Ralph came along, Ralph Salmins came along at 16 and filled in on a rehearsal at the big band.

Geoff 3:40

So which area did you grow up? Is that around here in Surrey?

Phil 3:43

I was in Ashford in Middlesex, right near Heathrow. Okay. And this was in Slough. So Dad was taking us Sunday mornings to this these rehearsals. Right. Right. So he'd do his job. He was in the uh petrochemical industry, he's like a lead designer on oil rigs and all of that. I think Sunday he just wanted to smoke his pipe and read the times, and we'd play all the usual, the usual sort of, you know, some Basie stuff, Glenn Miller, but also quite a lot of theme tunes, maybe Shaft and Rockford Files and things like that. It was good fun. Ralph came into the rehearsal, you know, go and see this band that was like Chicago, called it's called Juvescence. So I went on to the gig and the bass player he got fired and they gave me an audition gig. And then I got the gig and did that with Ralph for a few years. He went to college, he was at Guildhall.

Geoff 4:30

Did you go to college too?

Phil 4:31

No. They

Engineering Apprenticeship to QE2 Gig

Phil 4:32

had a studio there. I did an engineering apprenticeship. I did a year doing like welding and milling and turning and all these engineering skills. Yeah. And like precision stuff. But I was actually on a drawing board designing things to make aircraft parts. Used to make hand throttles for Hawk trainers, which is the Red Arrows' plane and all that.

Geoff 4:51

Precise stuff, isn't it?

Phil 4:52

Yeah. And when I finished, it just so happened that Ken McIntosh's band was going on to the QE2. This was 84 September. I finished my apprenticeship one week, the next week I'm on the ship, and I'm playing for strict tempo dancing.

Geoff 5:06

So that was your way of turning professional.

Phil 5:08

We did New York, so we went to Manny's and Sam Ash and all this.

Geoff 5:12

Oh, how exciting, yes, yeah.

Phil 5:13

So that was great fun.

Geoff 5:15

That first feeling of rocking up in New York. I remember it well, yeah.

Phil 5:18

Yeah, and none of those shops are there anymore. And I remember we went in and Mike Manieri was was standing there at the counter, and we were like, oh my god, I couldn't afford anything because the pound was $1.20.

Geoff 5:29

So what did you do when you got back from that? How did your career pan out after that?

Touring, Pop and Fusion Breaks

Phil 5:33

Well, there's a few gigs we came sort of till Christmas, but there was a uh a singer called Booker Newbury III who was doing a little pop like soul tour, and I did that with Paul Dunn on guitar, Gordon Marshall on drums, guy called Korku Jidzornu on percussion.

Geoff 5:48

Good name!

Phil 5:48

Who's yeah, well we used to call him Reg. But Booker came over and we did this tour. He had a hit the sort of year before, and then the next year I picked up the gig with Gloria Gaynor for a couple of years. So she used to use the band, and we would do all the sort of UK, she'd do a tour, and then just the usual sort of um function work and little jazz things as well, fusion bands and stuff like that, just cutting your teeth. A lot of it with Paul Dunn and Ralph, met Ian Thomas when he was pretty new to town. Uh Mike Bradley, they were the three drummers. Then I went and joined NYJO because I realised that I really needed to get some heavy-duty reading and understanding chords and changes down.

Geoff 6:33

And were you playing acoustic bass at this time?

Phil 6:35

No, I didn't play acoustic bass till I was in my 30s. Right. Because at that time as well, it was electric jazz, it was Jaco and

Geoff 6:42

It was, I remember it well, yeah.

Phil 6:43

The electric bass, it was that kind of and also used to go and see Dill Katz play a fair bit.

Geoff 6:49

Bless his heart, his. I bought my first double bass after Dill Katz.

Phil 6:52

Yeah, he was a great guy. I mean, probably when I was about 15 or 16, I saw him play with Barbara Thompson's Paraphernalia, and he was playing the fretless. I'd kind of heard a bit about fretless, but not really very much. At the end of the gig, we kind of helped them, me and my mate from the little band I had, we kind of helped them uh pack up, and then I said to him, What should I be listening to? And he said, Get yourself the Jaco Pastorius album and Heavy Weather , Weather Report.

Geoff 7:16

Yeah, that's enough, isn't it?

Phil 7:17

Yeah. So then I bought myself, well, my parents bought me, a fretless precision bass and I had the bridge pickup put in it. So it sounded more like the Jazz Bass. Like the Jaco thing, turn the front pickup off and then and then dulled the back pickup off to get the Jaco kind of sound. Although when I started doing the ships, I had a Jazz Bass, it was so heavy. I'm sure if I'd have thrown it overboard, it would just stop the ship. Yeah, we'd do like an hour and a half strict tempo dancing or whatever, and yeah, it was like pretty hard on the old shoulder. So moving back forward, yeah. After the Gloria Gaynor joined NYJO, then Paul Dunn recommended me to Barbara Thompson, Jon Hiseman. So I went to their studio and I thought, oh well, it's this is an audition. We played this Song.

Geoff 8:00

It's not far from here, is it?

Phil 8:02

Two miles away in Sutton in Surrey. So we played this tune through, it's quite tricky, and it was all kind of offset. And then Jon went, right, where's the new album stuff? And I was like, Oh, this is moving along a bit fast. So, anyway, I was in for the tour, so we did the tour and they recorded the tour for a live album. You know, that all got quite exciting, you know. Yeah, so that was fun.

Geoff 8:24

So you're you're stepping away from the from the pop music into the into the jazz world now, aren't you? With Thompson.

Phil 8:30

Kind of the fusion end. There's a lot of things where I'm playing like in Ostinato in seven while Jon plays like four minutes, and that was like play the riff round and round till Jon's ran out of ideas, and Jon had a pretty deep well of ideas, so just concentrate and yeah,

Geoff 8:43

It's good discipline, isn't it?

Phil 8:44

Yeah. But yeah, there's a lot of things. Then I got into doing a bit of sort of more commercial work, a sort of regular function band, and then some show theatre show stuff. Had the you know, started a family and got a mortgage, and then you know, all that moves along. And then there was probably about eight or ten years. I was doing a few pop things. I mean, I know you were in the didn't you do 2, was it 2 Point 2 that band or whatever it's called?

Geoff 9:09

God, how do you remember that? That's a long time ago. Keith Bovey, bloody hell. 2 Point 2 yes, I think you're right.

Phil 9:14

Yeah, I am right, yeah.

Geoff 9:15

Yeah, God, that's that's just unlocked something, something in my memory that I didn't realise was there. That's incredible. So we're talking about the 90s here, aren't there? And there was it was a bit of money flowing around. Record companies would pay for bands to do showcases. Do you remember that? Yeah, all that stuff that would have you get on you get on a retainer as well. Do you remember that? Yeah, I was the thing that got me out of art college. I got on a retainer with a it might have even been that 2 Point 2 band, I can't even remember.

Phil 9:40

Yeah, different times.

Breaking Into West End Shows

Geoff 9:41

So so then uh you got into West End Show. So tell us about your route into show.

Phil 9:47

Well, the first thing I did was, in fact, in the late 80s, I depped on Starlight Express. It you know, normally the route you would take would be you'd do depping on a touring show or something, and John Mole, who played with Coliseum II and Gary Moore, was the bass player in Starlight Express, and he wanted some depps. Ralph was depping in there, goes back to Ralph again, and Ralph recommended me. I was given the pad, practiced it till I couldn't forget it, and then went in and did a show for John, and then I was on his rotor of depps.

Geoff 10:18

So, do you remember what was the first show that you got of your own?

Phil 10:21

Oh, that was the tribute to the Blues Brothers at the Whitehall. So it was like a Blues Brothers review.

Geoff 10:27

Because it's different, isn't it? In the West End. Depping is a lot of difference to hav ing your own show.

Phil 10:31

Oh, yeah. Well, depping's a you know, particularly if the show's a roast and you don't get to do it very much.

Geoff 10:36

It's bloody hard.

Phil 10:37

That's really, yeah, that's a that's a thing only for the brave.

Geoff 10:40

I've talked about that quite a lot with various people on this podcast before and how stressful it is and how

Phil 10:45

yeah, you've kind of got to know it well enough so that you're not in the paper. You've got to you've got to know the bits where you've got to look up, and then you look up and it's the yeah, suddenly it's the third conductor. Yeah, and you're looking up going, well, that's not what the first conductor does.

Geoff 10:59

Where's his downbeat? Where is it?

Phil 11:01

Yeah, yeah. Or you get one of those things where there's no upbeat at all. It's just a if they're a keyboard MD, they just drop their head. You know, all MDs are created equal, but some are more equal than others. Yes. I think is the is the term. So did quite a lot of that after Blues Brothers. Oh, I did a thing called the Hot Mikado, which was like a swing band. That was quite fun. Then oh god, there was quite a few of them. Leonardo, Fields of Ambrosia. I think one of them is the shortest run ever in the history of the West End. Okay. So yeah, I've kissed a few frogs that didn't turn into princes.

Geoff 11:32

Right, right.

Phil 11:33

And then Saturday Night Fever came along, I guess. That was probably the big one, one of the big ones that I so that was great. That was at the Palladium, yeah, it was great.

Geoff 11:43

Lots of octaves.

Phil 11:44

Yeah, that was that was really fun. Yeah, I mean there was a there was quite a few of them then.

Geoff 11:48

So once you're in the West End and you have a reputation for doing that well, I I guess that just leads to other ones, right? Other shows?

Phil 11:56

Yeah, well, it all depends on which fixes you're in with because because obviously that fixer gets that show, they don't know you, but this fixer knows you, and they you know, Andy Barnwell, Sylvia Addison, there's quite a few that I've got to know very well over the years. And Maurice Cambridge is the other one. I mean, I did I think he offered me Mamma Mia a million years ago, and I didn't take it because I was doing some jazz gigs or something. So it's you know

Geoff 12:20

good for you,

Phil 12:20

good for me. I think I was playing with Nelson Rangell at the blooming the Pizza Express. I mean, I had great fun doing those gigs, but it was like, what you know, as far as earning potential, that was like a few days' work. Yeah, I mean it was one of those interesting things that I passed up.

Geoff 12:36

But it must be difficult, you know. Once you I mean, I've never done that, but uh once you have that regular income after your first year, how can you walk away from that?

Phil 12:44

I mean, it is really hard. It's like the golden handshake, you know, or whatever, or the golden, I think people call them the golden handcuffs or something. But you know, it's paid for quite a few things round here, and I'm very, very grateful. I got to do some good ones. Avenue Q is hilarious, right? That was brilliant. The puppets thing with um that's like the Muppets. It's like the Muppets looks incredibly rude.

Practising Standards With Quartet App

Geoff 13:12

Um, can we talk about jazz standards? Because I've made these apps.

Phil 13:16

And I use them, yeah.

Geoff 13:17

How do you use them? What's your process for using the apps?

Phil 13:19

I mean, I use them actually expressly to play through some changes and to practice upright and practice walking lines. Because I've taught lots of people over the years. Lots of people come to me, they want to get some kind of hip things in their vocabulary, and what they don't realise is it all goes back to jazz harmony. So your apps are perfect for routining stuff over. You know, you've obviously got a great hit squad playing these, you know. I mean, Sebastian's fabulous, and Graham is there's some great pianists out there, there's nobody better than Graham, you know.

Geoff 13:51

But you listen to Graham's intros, just the creativity, you can tell that he knows the tune. You can hear part of that tune inside of his intro. You know, sometimes we spot the intro, you know, spot the tune from the intro, and you can usually get it from what what he plays on it. It's just so musical.

Phil 14:08

Yeah, it's it's you know really intuitive to play along with it, with it, you know. And also you've got all the tempos you can change, you can change the key. Yep, yeah, you know.

Geoff 14:18

So I asked you to pick a tune

Why 'Road Song' Works so Well

Geoff 14:20

to play today. What tune did you pick?

Phil 14:22

I've picked 'Road Song' by Wes Montgomery.

Geoff 14:24

Tell us why you picked that tune.

Phil 14:26

Well, I got asked to play it on a gig years ago, it was Nelson Rangell. He said, Oh, we'll probably do Road Song. I hadn't played it before, so I thought, ah, look at this. So I went online and there's an amazing version. It's Chuck Loeb, Pat Martino. Who's the other guy? There's four guitar players and they all blow on it. It's a huge long thing. It's like a guitar festival type thing. So I started playing along with that, and you've got all the different you've got Pat Martino and Chuck's great, and all the guys have got something to say on it. Yeah, and I just got into it because it's got a some little bits of kind of like the G minor bit, interesting thing, little bits of modal, then you've got it moving around, particularly in the bridge, you've got you know, several different 2-5-1s and and also that minor with the the dominant chords, like a you can, you know, it's like an altered type of thing.

Geoff 15:13

Yeah, there's loads of possibilities.

Phil 15:14

There is, it's quite you know, rich what you can do with it.

Geoff 15:17

Absolutely. And this is on Quartet four, isn't it?

Phil 15:20

It is in volume four, yeah. Indeed.

Geoff 15:22

Right, grab your bass and let's have a little go. Wow. It's funny, you know, because we've started around the same time, we're about the same age, aren't we? We've never seen you play before. And you've probably never seen me play before either. I might have seen you play before, I'm not sure. Yeah, so um I'm excited. I'm looking forward to it. Tell us about your bass.

Phil 15:39

Overwater J5, Bartolini pickups Johnny's circuit. Yeah, it's my go-to thing. If somebody books me on something, this

Geoff 15:46

Lovely pearl uh fingerboard as well.

Phil 15:48

Oh scratch plate, yeah.

Geoff 15:49

Scratch plate, yeah.

Phil 15:50

Rosewood fingerboard, yeah, uh, swamp ash. And uh very nice bit of rosewood.

Geoff 15:55

Very nice indeed. I mean if I can get it open. Killing.

Phil 18:03

Well, it was all right.

Geoff 18:04

Yeah, it was great. I'm I'd really like to hear you play some bass on it actually. Okay. What kind of bass line would you play on that?

Phil 18:11

Yeah, you could do, yeah, yeah, fantastic. Yeah. You could do something like that. Yeah, yeah. Or you could do a bit of a bit of Brazilian.

Geoff 18:59

A bit of Brazilian.

Books Transcriptions and Jazz Vocabulary

Geoff 19:00

Yeah, so you got have you got any um bass player tips? I know you I know you've written some books.

Phil 19:05

Yeah, many years ago I did a few bass transcription books and I I did some like beginners. I mean, I went to the publisher, a guy called Mick Shepherd at Music Sales, and he said, We'll do some bass transcription books. And I had all this Anthony Jackson stuff, so I showed him it. He goes, This is great, Phil. He goes, here's music, it's a pyramid. The top is all the top people, yeah. Very small amount of people. He said, We want the bottom of the triangle. Yeah, he said, because there's the volume. I did the Complete Bass Player One and Two, and then two books called Absolute Beginners One and Two. Right. I'm not sure you call the second book Absolute Beginners, but anyway, so they were for Wise Publications, and that that was like 25 years ago or 30 years ago. There's quite a few bass players in the West End, funnily enough, who are young now, sorry, a bit older now, like in their 40s, who are maybe 20 years younger than me, and they're like, My first bass book was your bass book, which is really funny, which is great. I mean, as I said before, learning as much about harmony and learning as much about the fingerboards as you can is gold because it means that you're adaptable in many different areas. I mean, I remember there was some TV work I started doing with a musical director, and I think he had a bass player who was great, but he didn't play any jazz. And because I've been in NYJO and I could play walking lines that were functional and stuff like that, it meant he'd put a chart up and he'd be like, he'd just write me out the chord changes, and I'd be able to play something that would work rather than

Geoff 20:29

Because you're used to improvising, is that that's what you mean, isn't it? Yeah, you can you can make something from a from a chord, from a chord change.

Phil 20:37

Yeah. I mean, just like reading a Real Book. Um

Geoff 20:39

What about a uh vocabulary? You're talking about transcriptions. Did you do a lot of transcribing of bass lines and and as well as solos?

Phil 20:47

Yeah, loads of it. Um, there's probably some down there, uh really old ones, you know, on that yellow manuscript paper.

Geoff 20:54

Was there inspirational things that you you might have done that you still go back to?

Phil 20:59

Oh, well, lots of Anthony Jackson things for bass lines is a Paul Chambers bass line for Lazy Bird. See lots of things like that, classic things with dense 251s. There's loads in Lazy Bird, isn't it? Things like that. There's a really great couple of solos on the George Benson - Earl Klugh album. It's a bit fusion, sort of smooth jazzy. It's called Brazilian Stomp, I think. And what they play over like the altered chords, each one of them is just like absolutely fabulous. So it's like a little chromatic, like you might have a yeah. I might have played it when we played it. So you know, flat nine, like a chromatic back to the back to the uh root, seven, sharp five, and then and then it's like an altered scale, or sometimes putting a diminished where there might be an altered. So if you've got that into the the G minor, you know, five two one. For instance, just lots of little things like that. I mean, you can do some obtuse things and play like out, or you could like over the G7, the G minor you can play like uh like a minor major seven type thing.

Geoff 22:08

A James Bond chord.

Phil 22:10

Yes, of course. Of course. Smashing. So yeah, there's so much, but you know, the app is really useful for that. If you're having a bit of trouble, you can just slow it down.

Geoff 22:19

And you can loop sections as well.

Phil 22:21

Yeah, it's gold in terms of practice, and you know, the deeper you get into it using it. I mean, I wish I had more time to practice. It's like

Geoff 22:27

I'm the same, I know what you mean, yeah. Right, okay.

Favourites Career Highs and Nerves

Geoff 22:32

So I've got some questions. Yep. The first question is what's your favourite album?

Phil 22:38

Alright, 'The Dude' Quincy Jones, probably.

Geoff 22:40

That's a good one. Yeah.

Phil 22:42

That's not bad.

Geoff 22:43

Any others that you would cite as inspiring in your development as a bass player?

Phil 22:47

Uh, 'What you're gonna do for me?', Chaka Khan.

Geoff 22:50

Yes.

Phil 22:51

I could pick one of many Steely Dan albums.

Geoff 22:54

Yes.

Phil 22:55

But maybe I will go for maybe Gaucho.

Geoff 23:00

Gaucho, yeah.

Phil 23:01

But you need to have the second arrangement on that. So you have to find is it called the First or the Second Arrangement? There's a low-quality MP3 of the track , that was erased, kicking around. Yeah. You need that as well, because that's here on Bullock. I think it's it sounds to me like Chuck Rainey, although it's credited as Will Lee.

Geoff 23:17

Amazing, amazing things. Second question: Is there a musician alive or dead you'd like to play with?

Phil 23:23

Crikey, that's a hard question. There's probably so many. Do you know who I'd who I'd really like to play with? Brian Blade.

Geoff 23:31

Excellent, very creative drummer, American drummer. Fabulous. Amazing touch, great dynamics. Incredible. That's a good that's a good choice, yeah.

Phil 23:38

Yeah, that'd be fun. But there's again, there's so many out there. There's a lot. Yeah.

Geoff 23:42

Uh, question number three: what would you say was the highlight of your career?

Phil 23:48

Oh, goodness, that is hard.

Geoff 23:49

You've got a good memory for stuff.

Phil 23:51

I've got a good memory for stuff.

Geoff 23:52

Not like me, I can't remember anything I've done.

Phil 23:54

I mean, there's quite a few things. One of them was playing on a track that I then found out was Beyoncé was going to be singing on in for X Factor. There was a final with Alexandra Burke and they called us into the studio. There was just me and I think it was Andy McGlassen on drums. I did all the sort of pre-record backing tracks on the sit for about six years.

Geoff 24:11

So when you say pre-recorded, that means you did you play on the live show as well?

Phil 24:16

I did some, I did a few of the big band shows. You did a few of those, didn't you?

Geoff 24:19

Yeah, I have done, yeah.

Phil 24:20

I'd do the pre-records for the Saturday show. So we on Wednesday we record, might do 15 tracks or whatever, and we record them, and then they'd edit them for the and there'd be playbacks on the Saturday of us. So me or Andy McGlassen on drums, Neil Will or Neil Wilkinson or

Geoff 24:36

So you have to mime on the show? No, no, no, there was no band on the show. They'd only have a live band when it was the big band show. Yeah. So the Saturday morning they called us in. I did the track and then subsequently found out that it was or while this when the session finished, it was like that's gonna be for today, and Beyonce is gonna be singing with Alexandra Burke. So that was fun. There's also I mean, there was a couple of Lionel Ritchie TV shows that we did, An Audience with Lionel Ritchie or something. That was great. But then there's some smaller things that I've really done that have been fantastic as well. Like I'd played several times now when he's come over with Eric Marienthal, and that's like just a full-on gig. And Eric is an alto sax player?

Phil 25:13

Yeah, he played with Chick. He goes into the sort of slightly into the smooth jazz thing, but obviously he's the heaviest player. That's an absolute dream, you know, because you can actually, you know, a lot of things you're like, right, this is a commercial thing, and therefore I and with that, there's no filter, you just go, I'm gonna play this.

Geoff 25:30

Smooth jazz is kind of a soul kind of jazz, it's got a bit of everything, really, hasn't it? It's kind of pop, you need a bit of discipline, you need creativity, all kind of wrapped up.

Phil 25:39

Yeah, and then Eric does some really heavy things. We did uh Your Gut to Give, which is the old um Brecker Brothers tune. You know, it's a roasting thing, and there's loads of little hits and stuff like that. Yeah, really fun. It's a different side to the studio pop thing. One of the best things that I've done, I enjoyed recording when I listened to it. It's a dreadful film, well, not a very good film. It's called Um The King of Thieves, and it's Michael Caine, and it's like a heist thing. But the music that Chris Egan orchestrated, Ben Benjamin Walllfisch composed most fantastic orchestrations. Yeah, it's me and Ralph, Adam Goldsmith, Chris played piano, then they put a big band on top. Yeah, and that is definitely one of the best things I've done. That it actually starts with bass guitar. There's a there's actually a show reel.

Geoff 26:21

I think I've seen it. Is it is it got a 60s kind of grooves and

Phil 26:24

yeah, it's very it's it's very much a Lalo Schifrin, yeah, yeah, sort of John Barry type thing, and that was fantastic to do. And when I heard it, I thought, oh wow, that's something to really be proud of. I mean, the film's all you know, not very it's like Last of the Summer Wine on steroids kind of thing. It's like oh you know, a bunch of pensioners doing a heist. Yeah, it it you know it's what it is, but the music is knockout, and also the the you know, the way it's mixed, it's great, but it's like the top, all the top brass players, you know, Mark Nightingale, Tommy Walsh, it's all those guys, and then there's that was really fun to do

Geoff 26:58

Because the rhythm section is a is a focus in that kind of music, isn't it? It is really can hear what's going on.

Phil 27:03

The sort of Carol Kaye, although I didn't use a pick, I don't oh no, I did on one cue. Yeah, so that was a lot of fun.

Geoff 27:09

Question number four what would you say is your musical weakness?

Phil 27:13

In terms of actually playing, I mean I'm kind of like a bit of a jack of all trades and master of none. Right. There are certain aspects of my playing that I definitely like to work on. I'd like to be a much better upright player. I think that's probably my Achilles heel is that I can make a reasonable noise on it and it's alright, but I'd actually like to be, you know, when I see

Geoff 27:33

Well talking about chops, if you don't keep playing that, your chops will easily go, can't they? Yeah. Yeah. You know, in terms of the physicality of playing it, you know.

Phil 27:41

Yep.

Geoff 27:41

Right, so question number five do you ever get nervous on stage?

Phil 27:45

Yeah, I do.

Geoff 27:46

In what sort of circumstance?

Phil 27:48

Well, the only circumstance where you get nervous is where you haven't prepared enough, where you absolutely are not quite sure what's going on. On the live TV shows, there's a kind of prickly nervousness. Yeah. And you get the five, four, three, two. And then they shake the fingers. And then at about two, it'll go for the click track, you play, and all your nerves are gone. Because you're just there, you're in the music and you're watching the conductor or whatever, and you are in it then. But beforehand, yeah, it's horrid.

Geoff 28:20

Yeah, yeah. Great answer, yeah. Question six, have you ever been starstruck?

Phil 28:24

Um, Nathan East came to uh an Eric gig, actually. If I'd have come off and seen him in the corner and had to play the second half.

Geoff 28:31

Oh, you didn't know he was there! I didn't know he was there. Thank goodness for that. Because if if I'd have had played the second half, I'd have been like.

Phil 28:40

But do you um if you're playing, I mean, when you're playing and you know you've got great musicians in the audience, do you play differently? I mean, that's the thing. I I I don't like to see people. I remember looking in the corner and Joe Hubbard and uh Julian Crampton were standing there.

Geoff 28:53

Yeah.

Phil 28:54

And I was like, oh god, can they go away? You know, that's happened a lot.

Films, Secret Projects and Travel

Phil 28:59

What's your favourite sandwich? It would have to be something on cia batta. Yeah, like a toasted Parma ham with some salad, something like that. Really crunchy,

Geoff 29:08

That's salty meat.

Phil 29:09

Yeah, really nice.

Geoff 29:11

Very nice. Uh, what's your favourite movie? What kind of movies do you like to watch?

Phil 29:15

I kind of like sort of espionage stuff like that, quite dark. Yeah, I do. I watch like Reacher and Harry Bosch. Do you know the Harry Bosch thing? I mean, I know that's a series, but I really like that with Titus Welliver.

Geoff 29:29

I know that some of my library's been used in that that series. Yeah, I haven't heard it, but

Phil 29:34

So is it jazzy stuff?

Geoff 29:35

I've made a lot of albums, I've made some 60s kind of Lalo Chifrony type stuff. I've made a whole load of jazz decades, 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s.

Phil 29:43

Well, things with Harry Bosch's, I love that series because Titus Welliver is exactly, you know when you get disappointed, you're like the casting is like, really? How can this guy be cast into that? Right. However, he's exactly how I thought a detective, is he? He's a detective, but he has a stereo in his like a valve stereo in his house and his house that overlooks the canyon at Los Angeles. His dog's called Coltrane.

Geoff 30:08

Oh, right, okay.

Phil 30:08

And he plays he'll be playing Art Pepper and stuff like that.

Geoff 30:12

Or my music, perhaps.

Phil 30:13

So, yes, well, it's probably your music. Oh, that's great, masqueraded as uh as the early Bond stuff I really like. But it has to have a feel. I like things that have got the right feel about it, and I hate watching the music ones where it's all wrong. But you're always looking at the instruments going, well, that's the wrong bass guitar, or you can't possibly be playing it like that.

Geoff 30:32

So that leads us nicely on to something you're working on at the moment, which you can or cannot talk about.

Phil 30:37

I can't talk about it, but I've had to sign a non-disclaimer. Um, I'm doing some teaching on a project uh Four Boys from Liverpool. That's all I'll say.

Geoff 30:45

The Four Boys from Liverpool and you're and you're coaching the the one that plays the bass, right?

Phil 30:50

Uh I couldn't possibly say. Yeah.

Geoff 30:52

And how is that going?

Phil 30:53

Is that going well? Uh yeah, it's an incredible thing to be involved with and um a fine young chap, so yeah.

Geoff 31:00

And does that mean you have to play a Hoffner bass left-handed?

Phil 31:03

No.

Geoff 31:03

Does the actor play a Hoffner bass left-handed?

Phil 31:06

I couldn't possibly say.

Geoff 31:07

You're gonna kill me after this, are you?

Phil 31:08

Yeah, I'll have to yeah. Won't be me though. It'll be Sony Pictures.

Geoff 31:12

Right, okay. Right. How much longer are you working on this project for?

Phil 31:16

It'll be till next year.

Geoff 31:18

You'd make a great politician, Phil. He won't be drawn.

Phil 31:20

That's the nastiest thing anybody's ever said to me.

Geoff 31:24

Right, okay. Uh travelling. Have you got a favourite city?

Phil 31:27

Funnily enough, I haven't travelled much recently at all, and then suddenly I've done a couple of three weeks in Barcelona, then had a weekend in Naples, and then been a few places in our fair country here. So spent three weeks on a great show with Beverly Knight, actually, called The Drifters Girl. It's a really great band. And we were three weeks at the Theatre Royal in Newcastle. I love being in Newcastle.

Geoff 31:47

Really?

Phil 31:47

It was great. I love going to places, and you know, Saturday afternoon, you're in the middle of town, you're at the Earl Grey Memorial, right in the middle of Newcastle. Newcastle score a goal, and the stadium's just a few hundred yards away.

Geoff 32:00

Football, you mean?

Phil 32:01

My god, yeah, they get it's almost like an eruption. Yeah, it's like the passion of the people up there as well. Yeah, I mean it's it's great, but I love being in those, you know, in those towns. Any big town, but I I am a person that gets out and I'll I'll see the place and walk the streets.

Geoff 32:19

Um when you travel, window or aisle?

Phil 32:22

Aisle.

Geoff 32:22

Okay. Cats or dogs? Obviously, dogs.

Phil 32:25

Dogs.

Geoff 32:26

Your beautiful dog. What kind of dog is he?

Phil 32:28

Beagle.

Geoff 32:28

He's a beagle.

Phil 32:29

He's a beagle.

Geoff 32:30

An old beagle.

Phil 32:31

An old, yeah.

Geoff 32:32

Lovely. What's the most used app on your phone?

Pedals, Social Media and Being Yourself

Phil 32:35

There's probably a few. Auto Trader? No, um, I'm very into cars.

Geoff 32:39

Do you do social media? Yeah. Which ones do you do?

Phil 32:42

Uh I've got an Insta account, Facebook. I mean it's all necessary, but it's all time consuming. I mean, there's never enough time to do anything. So I find that, you know, to be a drain. But a lot of it's necessary for gigs. Oh, can you do publicity? Can you do this? Can you do that? Uh well, of course, the Quartet app.

Geoff 32:59

Oh, that's the right answer for that. No, that's the one looking for. No, I'm joking.

Phil 33:04

I probably should look at my phone and see and I 'm on Vinted quite a lot.

Geoff 33:08

Vinted, that's a good site, isn't it?

Phil 33:09

Yeah, get some really good clothes and all sorts though, now. Yeah. They're doing tech and reverb on that a bit. Oh, that's dangerous, reverb, isn't it? That's very dangerous. The funny thing with pedal boards is there's about 600, 700 quids worth of pedals there. Sometimes I look down at the end of the end of the gig, and I was like, oh, I didn't press any of those.

Geoff 33:29

Oh, I'm exactly the same.

Phil 33:31

If you notice there's no preamp or I mean, that's kind of like a preamp, but it's not. That's basically a glorified A B switcher. It's very, very super nice quality. And everything's flat as well. Look, I mean the sound comes from here. But there's all these guys that are like going mental about compressors and preamps. And I'm like,

Geoff 33:44

No, it's all in the fingers, isn't it?

Phil 33:46

It's all in the fingers. It's like well, I think the most important thing though, somebody was saying the other day, oh, I've got an audition, what should I do? And I just said, go along and be yourself. You know, that that's all you can do. You can wish that you sounded like Marcus Miller or you sounded like or whatever. But at the end of the day, all your little influences and stuff all go into make up what is you.

Geoff 34:05

It's very wise. One more question for you.

Favourite Chords and Final Thoughts

Geoff 34:08

Phil 34:08

Yeah.

Geoff 34:08

What's your favourite chord?

Phil 34:10

13 sharp eleven or seven flat five, you know, a seven flat five sharp nine, something altered and yeah, something altered. I mean, I love that when people put like Graham would he'll just add another extension to something, and that really oh, I like that. I mean, when I hear music with the same chords all the way through, you know, like a four-bar thing, round and round and round and round. Part of my brain just switches off, you know, and the groove's the same and everything like that. My brain just goes, not interesting.

Geoff 34:37

It's like eating food without the seasoning, isn't it?

Phil 34:40

Yeah, without any flavour. Yeah. If you listen to something like Andrew Gold, his tunes, you know, Lonely Boy.

Geoff 34:46

Oh, yeah.

Phil 34:46

What a great tune. And no, you know, or Minute by Minute by the Doobies or Michael McDonald's songs. It's like, you know, the harmony all makes sense and it all goes somewhere.

Geoff 34:55

But it's it makes sense to us, doesn't it? That's the difference, yeah. Yes. Right, Phil, I think that'll do it. Thanks so much for your time. It's um

Phil 35:03

Geoff

Geoff 35:03

Has been great.

Phil 35:04

Absolute pleasure.

Geoff 35:05

And uh let's meet again soon and uh play some bass together.

Phil 35:09

Yeah, I'll come over to you. Yeah, come to me next time.

Geoff 35:12

All right, thanks, mate. Bye for now.

Phil 35:15

Cheers, Geoff.

Announcement 35:17

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